10-20 flush draw hand

[vkotlyar]

good 10-20 game. 2 ep limpers (they have 2 cards) and a good MP raises. one more caller, and i call in the BB w A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
checked to the raiser, he bets LP raises, i coldcall, EP coldcalls, raiser 3 bets, LP calls, i cap (comments?) and all call.
Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
i lead out and everyone calls.
river: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
i bet and get 2 callers.

any1 play it differently?
vitaly

[Clarkmeister]

Nothing but perfect.

[Garland]

Beautiful cap on the flop, betting on the come, and adding value to the pot and creating deception as well. You are most definitely behind, but you have so many ways to get out (heart, runner runner 8, etc).

I think there are many interesting hands out there including (1) A, King kicker (2) Aces and 10's, and (3) perhaps a set of 4's (any higher and this person would be making noise on the turn). Anyone show their hands on the river?

In addition you're almost certain to get paid off on the river because you made the pot so big and they won't put you on the flush (but will be afraid to raise on the river with it). Heck, on a good day someone with a 5 will try to raise with the straight.

Garland

[elysium]

hi vk
on the flop, i think you should be getting in the 3 bet here. you need to do whatever it takes to get this short-handed. you would like your A to get heads-up. in this situation, your first priority is getting that A heads-up. this is often true too when you only have an A over-card with your draw. if there is a chance to get short-handed or heads-up, then put 2 cold on. not having done that, the cap is fine. but we've hurt the A a little.

well, you see, putting in the cap makes it mandatory for you to bet-out. that's still o.k. though because it will help those times you complete your draw. but just look at this check-raise opportunity on the turn, my oh my.

o.k., now on the river, we're good again.

yeah vk, you must give first priority to the A in this situation. use your outs to represent the best kicker by check-raising and forcing the weak A to call 2 cold or fold. this gives you the best opportunity to get heads-up, and get the A to stand up.

[Garland]

Hi elysium,

I disagree with your assessment. I don't think we should be trying to get heads up. In fact, I think we should be trying to tie as many people to the pot as possible in the event we hit our nut flush. These are the opportunities we die for as a poker player. A draw to the nuts and tons of people in the pot. Trying to chase people out by 3-betting is clearly wrong, but when we have the opportunity to cap when everyone is already tied it for 2 and 3 bets is clearly right.

Garland

[elysium]

hi gar
it's easy to understand why you feel that way. having the nut draw is always exciting. however, we need only look at the size of the pot to realize that we must do everything within our power to win it, including giving our A pair the very best opportunity to stand up.

i will admit that the action is such in this hand, that even if we did accomplish our objective, our A pair, given the weak kicker, is probably not in the lead. but it would be a terrible mistake to fail to drive-out the weak A's in MP when presented with an opportunity to do so. it's a mistake that many players make gar. many times it can cost the whole pot. by reraising, we force the MP's in this hand to call 2 cold. if they drop, it could make big difference on the river.

remember gar, when the pot is large, as it is here on the flop, we mustn't slow-down to allow opponents in who have slightly better hands than ours. it's nice to have the extra outs, and the nut draw, but they'll have to take a back seat for now because we have a pair of aces, if the draw doesn't get there but an 8 does, we prefer to be in a short-handed way, especially if we miss completely the crummy 8. i sure hope they hold up. what do you think gar?

[Garland]

Hi elysium,

It would be easier to understand trying to win the pot and protect my hand by 3-betting if I feel I was ahead. But given the heavy action of the hand, that's clearly not the case. He is most definitely behind and should play for the nut flush and try to get as much money from as many players as possible. Change that A8 to AK and you have a valid argument. If he goes to the showdown with A8 and the heart didn't appear (and he didn't improve his hand with an 8), he is NOT winning this hand.

Garland

[Hat Trick]

I totally agree, well played. You are not going to scare anybody out with that size pot and you are not going to win with the 8 kicker if the heart does not fall. I especially like the cap for the deception (confusion) and (obviously) to make a really big pot.

[beerbandit]

Maybe a check raise on the end-with the pot so large someone might try to take a stab at it with a set or smaller flush.