A Milestone Post : A8s on the Button

[GuyOnTilt]

Stakes-wise, this belongs in the Mid-High Stakes forum, but this table played like a 5/10.

We're 8-handed at the moment at an Empire 15/30 table. The texture is uncharacteristically loose/passive for these stakes. Three players fold, and MP open-limps (loose/passive on all streets), CO limps (decent player, who seems to play relatively tight postflop, not calling down lightly; good amount of aggression, and he would isolate here with any decent hand). I raise with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and both the blinds fold. Two limpers call and we're 3-handed to the flop for 7.5 SB's.

Flop comes: K /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP checks, and CO bets, and I raise. MP folds, and the CO call. We're HU to the turn for 5.75 BB's.

Turn comes: A /images/graemlins/club.gif[K /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

The CO checks. I consider things and check it through.

River comes: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif[A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

The CO bets and I call.

Any and all comments are appreciated.

GoT

[bunky9590]

Nicely played, I like the flop raise to get rid of MP. I like it even better if you think the CO will Dump KJs or KTs to your flop raise.

Turn check: Okay, If you think he is equally capable of leading out with a draw and smooth calling, then the check makes sense. I more than likely bet ther, but thats just me. However if checking can make him bluff at the river or think his King is good, it makes a lot of sense.

If I get checkraised on the turn, I still have to call with the Top two with the redraw, but I would'nt be happy about it.

Of course if you bet the turn and he folds, you wouldn't make as much because it intices him to bluff or "value bet" his King on the river, and you win. If he does indeed have the flush, you lose less and avoid the turn checkraise.

[gonores]

I guess it depends on his isolation standards...would he isolate with any playable king? I will say that most people I consider to be good isolators will limp in this spot only with two suited cards between Q and 8, which means you aren't going to get money out of him if you're ahead...I probably like the check and check-call.

Congrats on 2000.

[Trix]

Looks good to me, dont have a clue about what CO would limp with here preflop though.

[cjs]

Guy let's change the hand and see what you would do. On the turn instead of spiking your ace what if it's the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. How would you play the hand out.

If the Co still checks do you bet or check? On the river?

If the Co comes out betting on the turn do you call, raise, or fold? And on the river if he bets?

The reason I ask is when I bet a middle pair and overcard for a semibluff and I don't improve I will usually try and bluff through the river. This hasn't +EV for me at 1/2 or 2/4 ( my usual limits ). I wonder if a check fold at the river is a better play for me. I don't get my opponent to fold enough of the time.

[anatta]

I know you are betting this turn against most players. You must have considered the fact that if your opponent had a playable king, he would probably have isolated, thus making a flush draw or some hand that you don't want to fold (an 8) likely. Of course you hate it when he has some crappy club kicker or some other bs, but this hand was well played IMO.

[GuyOnTilt]

Guy let's change the hand and see what you would do.

Okay!

On the turn instead of spiking your ace what if it's the Q . How would you play the hand out.

If the Co still checks do you bet or check? On the river?

If he checks the turn, I'm betting. If he calls and checks a river blank, I check through.

If the Co comes out betting on the turn do you call, raise, or fold? And on the river if he bets?

I fold the turn if he bets out. If he check-calls the turn and bets a river blank, I'm folding almost all the time.

The reason I ask is when I bet a middle pair and overcard for a semibluff and I don't improve I will usually try and bluff through the river.

Ah ha! Your problem may be that you're semi-bluffing too much at those limits, but you have another problem as well: You can't distinguish a value raise from a semi-bluff raise. On the flop, I raise for value. The CO will almost never have a King in this spot; it's most likely a draw or an 8. A flop raise here is a must, not to get him to lay down a better hand, but to drive out the MP and to make the CO pay to continue, as well as take control of the pot.

It's really the turn check that I was concerned about for this hand. I'm still not positive I played the turn correctly...

GoT

[JohnShaft]

I guess it all depends on what hands you think the CO would limp with in that spot. And what you lose out to.
I don't see you lose out to much on that turn.

AA/KK/44 out. 88 possible, but you would maybe expect a raise preflop, and there's only one combination of 88, so again unlikely.

AK very unlikely.

So you have what looks almost certain to be the best hand to me, unless he has the flush, something like say, QJs?

I would have bet the Turn (unless I thought my opponent was very tricky, and not likely to call me with a worse hand) almost all the time here.

I think you only check the Turn if you think your opponent could have the flush, because I don't see what else he can have that beats you.

I'm very suprised you checked the Turn particularly. That of course doesn't mean you weren't right in this spot. But overall, I don't know.

[cjs]

guy, I didn't see it as a value raise because I did not discount the co having the K. Are you making this read on no prefolp raise? I get shown K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in this situation many times.