Limping some strong hands to avoid the "tightening effect"

[Gramps]

Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

Due to Party's problems tonight, I crusied to my local B&M to play $3/6 against the "any two cards" crowd. 10-handed, usually at least 7 to every flop, even though I'm sitting there folding most of the time. The kind of crowd that really WANTS to see the flop with their 84o "just in case" it hits them hard, even if they know better. Plus, most of these people play very poorly after the flop, so they're paying you off calling the flop and sometimes Turn bets with nothing. Or raising on the River when they make two pair on a flush/straight board, etc.

The "tightening effect" that sometimes occurs is when people start raising pre-flop. Now, the any two cards players have pay 2 bets to see a flop with their 84o. They start getting upset about the raises and start tightening up, FEARING a raise and the sting of paying 2 bets with their junk, only to have the flop miss them again. Now, only 4-5 people are seeing the flop. Thus, due to the pre-flop raising, these people are playing closer to correct stratgey.

It takes close to an orbit of no pre-flop raising before it's "safe again," and people can revert to their "any two cards ways." Also, when a "tightie" like me raises and shows down a strong hand, that one hand alone is enough to tighten up the game for a number of future hands. Or, my pre-flop raise "reminds" a player with aggressive tendencies that he too can raise pre-flop, and HE is the one who wakes up and raises it up for a couple of hands "for the hell of it," thus causing the aforementioned tightening effect.

The rake at my local club is $4 regardless of pot size, so with this structure, having lots of players paying to see the flop is even more important than normal.

So...given the above, and the "collateral negative effects" of raising, does it make sense to limp with some of the stronger suited hands from early or middle position? (AQs, AJs, KQs, etc.) A hand like TT? Maybe you give up a little expectation in that hand, but you may get more back over the next 5-10 hands by preserving the (very) loose nature of the game. I'm thinking if I'm in LP or on the button and a bunch of people have VP$IP already, don't overthink it and get as much $$ in the pot as you can. But if I don't have position, I don't want to "disturb the nature of the game" on these hands.

For example, tonight I was in MP1 (acting 4th) and pick up K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Limp, limp, fold...if I raise, I'll probably get one or two cold callers and possibly the blinds (plus UTG & UTG+1)...but...I might tighten up the table for the next number of hands. Maybe I'm giving up a little exepectation on this hand by not raising, but it would seem I may be getting it back and more by helping to keep the game super-loose.

If I have AA/KK/QQ/AKo in that position, I'll risk the collateral tightening effect. It just seems that with the hands that do well against lots of players, it might be wise to limp where under most game conditions you would raise.

All comments and criticism welcome

[lil']

Now, only 4-5 people are seeing the flop. Thus, due to the pre-flop raising, these people are playing closer to correct stratgey.
Yeah, but 4-5 people calling 2 bets is still more money than 7 people limping for one.

Also, when a "tightie" like me raises and shows down a strong hand, that one hand alone is enough to tighten up the game for a number of future hands.
Yes, but you may not have a great starting hand later. You have a great starting hand now. You have to get the money in the pot when you have the best hand, and not worry about future hands you might not even be involved in.

What you are talking about might work if you receive a series of good starting cards in a row. Say you've raised 3 out of the last 7 pots, and in the 8th hand you find pocket aces. That might be a good time to try limping, if you're really afraid you will get zero action.

[dirty_dan]

[b]What you are talking about might work if you receive a series of good starting cards in a row. Say you've raised 3 out of the last 7 pots, and in the 8th hand you find pocket aces. That might be a good time to try limping, if you're really afraid you will get zero action. [\b]

If you've raised 3 of the last 7 then raising your aces is perfect. Your raise won't get as much respect so you'll likely have several callers.

I'd loosen up my preflop raising standards slightly if the table turns tight. Try to steal some blinds. If you end up getting called and going to showdown with one of these lesser hands it'll encourage the rest of the table to loosen up. Then go back to your usual tight preflop play.

[bernie]

if you're at the point of getting zero action on preflop raises, it's time to lower your raising standards quite a bit. this usually only happens to players who raise only with AA-QQ and AK. time to start stealing and running over the table.

i like what you said about 'only' getting 4-5 callers. to me that's not tightening up, that's a great game. especially if you're the main aggressor in the game.

if that's the case, then your raising standards should be fine and no adjustment is needed.

b

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

$4 Rake regardless of pot size! That is insane. So it the pot is $12 you are paying 33%. I would never play there again but that is just me. Surely there are other things to do on a Saturday night when Party Poker crashes. For example, UB /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bunky9590]

Its not my style, I'll raise more than the next guy because after a time my raises get callers. Then when I get legit hands, they call anyway. Just in case I don't have it.

Limping with strong hands just makes my blood boil.

[Mike]

As part of your whole game I think it makes sense. You just can not do this as the whole game plan. If you think of waves on the beach, play like that. When they loosen up and you catch them, raise. When they are tight and you limp it scares them. You can hopefully take advantage of that too.

Playing only B & M I know exactly what you are saying. If you raise with your better hands, you only get the blinds and one or two flop bets.

Slowplaying does have serious risk though. You lose an awful number of strong hands if you overdo it.