a conversation i had; hope the post is respondable

sitting at the table, i hear the guy next to me tell the player next to him that he writes down every hand he's involved in.


peeked my interest.


he said hes been doin it for 7 years. thats alot of frickin hands. says he goes over em now and again. i asked what type of stats. he said so he knows his trouble hands, his profitable hands..etc.. so i asked if he kept track of the type of table and players involved in the hand. this triggered him asking me questions on starting hands. what would i raise with UTG . his 1st question to me actually was whats a raising hand to me? i told him it depends on the table and the players. he says, "well i mean ya cant raise with 7-2os". i say, "sure ya can. ever heard of a stone cold bluff?" he reluctantly agrees then he brings up "well, its the odds thing. which has the best odds to raise and knock people out. or which is better to raise with some limpers" i told him again, depends on conditions. is the table passive? are they tight? stuff like that.


again, he kept just talkin odds of this, and odds of that. i couldnt understand why a person keepin notes for 7 years why he didnt seem to think the conditions were relevant. further on in the conversation i realized he wasnt so much concerned about the other players play, but just his own.

i think its good that he's keepin track of his hands, but i think he oughtta use some more info on his sheet. make it more complete.


my question is, has anyone ran into a person like this? if so, howd you respond without giving up too much information about your own play? i dont mind talkin strategy at times with a guy next to me, but this guy intrigued me a little. 7 years worth of hands? even the 3rd guy thought that was a little excessive.


unless hes a good friend of mine or a player that has mutual respect, they can find out on the felt how i play. but i also gained great insight into how his mind works by some of his questions and responses. he wasnt just acting or jokin either. i could tell by his body language and his little pad he pulled out after every hand.


b

this is funny, I think you should just grab him after the game and say,


"psssst, there are a few books that'll help you


David Sklansky's Hold'em Poker, and Hold'em for Advanced Players


and Mason's Pokey Essays; they are people who have been there done that"


but then again, like you said you don't want to give out too much information so don't tell him that.


The funny thing is about these poker books is that people have them, but no one wants to talk about them, unless they are in this forum, I would hate to let someone know about these poker books if I was sitting at a table. One time up in Foxwoods, someone mentioned David Sklansky's books, and I said, "Who's Sklinsky??" Two guys looked at me and laughed, but I was the one who was laughing, and then I knew to be aware of those guys


***but if someone starts telling you stuff like this, just sit there and smile and be all intrigued, ask him what he has come up with so far??


Ask the guy questions.....he'll be happy to answer them, after all, he's the one who brought it up?

Power,


Well said.


Tonight I cracked a table with rolled up ducks. I waited until fifth street and then I popped it. I had two callers until the showdown.


After the hand, I just stacked my chips and didnt say a word. The players in the hand discussed how I played the hand, but I didnt enter into their conversation.


I don't want to share idea's with players at the table. I don't to give them any information on how I play. I want them to believe the game is gambling. I don't want to educate them.


Power try the Trop again. You just had one bad experience.


Best Wishes


MK

had a young guy about my age sitting next to me the other day. he started telling me about bad beats, and blah blah blah... he knew i knew what i was doing, and he would give me information on each new player that sat down. the thing is, i knew exactly what hands he was playing, and pretty much everybody else at the table was playing the same way -- weak/tight. using this information, i was able to push people off their hands a surprising amount. i was stone cold bluffing into 3 opponents on an A-high flop with absolute crap and they'd all fold. hand after hand, sometimes. and every once in a while, id get called down, and i would actually have it, or if they all folded, id turn over a strong hand in disgust at all the action i wasn't getting. of course, i did this selectively, and i did it to reinforce my image. the kid next to me even said to me 'i know you're bluffing some of these pots, i just don't know which ones...' it was great. and i could read him like a billboard. i knew what hand he was folding, etc. he even asked me what books i had read. i even told him. because i knew that he wasn't ever going to be aggressive enough to use that knowledge against me, and it only reinforced a tight image of me in his head anyways...

You should tell people about the site and about the books. Get out the fact that poker is a game of skill, increase public awareness, promote the game. If you keep it all to yourselves, then the game will retain an image of something played only by sharks and rounders.


As the game becomes more popular, more newbies and tourists will flood to the casinos and the cardrooms to continue to fill your pockets.


Where would we be today if all the authors had kept their "secrets" to themselves?

well then if you think that way, you should go into the business of Newstands in Casino's where you can sell books to individuals on various topics assocaciated with hold'em


*especially in the front where everyone puts their initials down. See how all the really good players appreciate your kindness to newcomers.


-the first time I sat down and played hold'em in a casino, I lost $200 playing 2-4 in about an hour, I don't remember once anyone getting angry at me, the good players(people with a lot of money in front of them) would smile at me, when I took down a pot, and gave me the thumbs up. I thought I was good, but man little did I know, they were going to beat me senseless, same thing when I went and played 5-10, I would play with types of hands, anything sutied, I would call all the way down, hoping to catch a 5 to make a straight with my 4, absolutely terrible, yeah I took down a few pots, but no one was ridiculing me, a few would sit there, and congradualte me, i thought I was good, Man after $500 went down the tubes, I blamed it all on bad luck.

Now after hearing this story why would I even think about mentioning a book to someone or show them how to play a hand if they played in incorrectly, "sorry buddy, you have to experience the growing pains I did"


-i'm only joking about the newstand stuff but there are a lot of regulars who play cards and they are really stubborn, they won't pick up a book, they think they know it all ready, the solely base their play on past experience which is bad. And some of them are marginal winners at best but most are still posting losses.

These kind of conversations are generally not good to have at the table. That's because it may get some recreational type to thinking that there is more to this game than he realizes. We have a short discussion of this in our advanced book.


On a similar note, I had a conversation with a player like this many years ago. He told me that the most amazing thing about his records that virtually every hand that he played was showing a long term profit. My response was why would you want to play a hand that showed a long term lost.

Mason,


I learned from Poker Essays that you do not discuss hands at a table. I also feel the same way. I never justify why I play a hand a certain way.


I decided that since I paid for my knowledge through my various studies, I wouldnt give away my knowledge for free. Let the live ones stay live. I don't want to give any edge away.


Best Wishes


MK

If someone is "fishy" enough to ask me what I had when I win without a showdown I always say whatever the nuts is, loudly.

I'll leave the topic of talking strategy with unknown players to others for their expert elaboration...


My observation here is that if he's playing against the same players on a regular basis, he's losing a lot of money by not paying attention to how they play. Since my usual haunt is comprised of almost entirely regular players, it would be suicidal for me to NOT pay attention to individual player tendencies. This might be slightly less pronounced in a place like Vegas, but you should still pay attention to the styles and tendencies of players you regularly encounter.


Dave in Cali