Did I play killer poker here, or was I just a fool?

[aces_full]

Paradise $5 + $1 single table NL tourney. Level II 10/20
Hero has 975 out of 1000 original TC I'm in 6th place.

I have just recently started reading the NL section of Super System. The part where Doyle talks about scooping up small pots right away, and "gambling" for big pots. His example of having 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif against A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif was fresh in my mind. Doyle talks about how his favorite starting hands are low suited connectors. In that spirit, I started to "gamble" a little more with those types of hands, and I was able to take a few good pots. I had one where I limped with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and made a straight on the turn. I checked the turn and my opponent led out and bet all in (with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif that made my straight) I quickly called and showed him he was drawing dead.

Well back to the hand in question:
Hero is UTG +1 with 975TC and
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, Hero limps for 20,UTG +2 limps, LP1 limps,button limps,SB calls, BB checks. Pot=120TC 6 players

Flop:
K /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I like this flop. I have the draw to the absoulte nuts, a broadway draw, and a diamond flush draw.

SB bets 100,BB folds, Hero calls hoping to trap if hand hits, UTG +2 calls, LP calls, my plan is working perfectly so far. Button goes all in, SB calls with 850 TC. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm thinking what have I gotten myself into? I only have 120 TC committed to this pot, and I could walk away right here and fight another day. On the other hand there's over 3000 chip in the pot, and I figure the pot is laying me good odds to play the hand. If I lose, I go out in a blaze of glory, if I win I will have a BIG chip lead and eliminate one player. I figure the button pushed all in with a AQ and had the straight. If I got K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I made the absolute nuts! There were also 7 other spades that would give me the nut flush, not to mention the outs I had to tie the straight. I was put to a decision here and Doyle's words echoed in my head: "If I make my hand, I'm gonna break him."

I put all my chips in and it was me against the button and SB.

Here's what I was up against:

button: A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif 39% favorite to win
SB: J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif 36%
I have about a 26% chance.

Now my first thought is why and the heck did the SB not raise JJ before the flop? I limped in out of position with a nearly worthless hand that I was prepared to let go of. If he made a substantial raise pre-flop, there's no way I would want to call down with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, especially since I was out of the money.

Turn:
8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Didn't help me, but didn't hurt either. More of Doyle's words came to mind here: "You can't count a man out until the last card falls." As long as the river was a diamond that didn't pair the board I was good.

River:
I'll post that later.

What do you tournament experts think about this hand?

[GoSox]

No illusions to being an expert, but....

What part of this would qualify playing "killer poker" ?? You limped in a NL game, out of position, with a hand you shouldn't be playing. Tends to be exactly the scenario that gets players in trouble. You had the worst hand of the three at the table, caught a miracle flop, and still have the worst hand of the three.

you've got plenty of outs, and will probably hit the flush, but early in the tourney and not short stacked getting into these spots with a mediocre hand will catch up to you longer term.

[aces_full]

I agree with you, but disagree to some extent. I consider myself to be a solid ring game player. I would pass on that hand almost every time in a ring game unless I was in a good position to play it.

I am a tight aggressive player, but I am finding that it doesn't seem to carry over well into NL tournament play. Unless I get lucky and catch some cards early on, I almost always end up getting blinded out just outside of the money. In single table tourneys,my strategy tends to work a little better. At $5 +$1 I know that I can outplay most of my opponents, so I usually sit tight until a few players have been eliminated and then try and outplay my opponents later on the short-handed expensive rounds. Some times this works, but most often I don't have enough chips.

If the circumstances were any different in this hand, I probably would have folded. In 6th place with no players out I felt a little more like gambling. If I were already in the money (top 3) or even 4th place, I would have folded to the all-in and said that's what I get for playing those cards out of position.

If the pot were significantly smaller I would also pass. I had the chance to take the lead, and I grabbed it. The button was the chip leader when he went all-in.

[CrisBrown]

Hi aces_full,

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $5 + $1 single table NL tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your first mistake. Why pay 20% vig if you don't have to? Both UB and PokerStars offer $5.50 SNGs, and that extra 5% of vig that you're paying comes straight out of your net profit.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has 975 out of 1000 original TC I'm in 6th place.

I have just recently started reading the NL section of Super System. The part where Doyle talks about scooping up small pots right away, and "gambling" for big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to reread that section. Doyle talks about picking up a lot of small pots to "freeroll" the times when he is in a pot as an underdog, i.e.: he's "gambling" with their money. You're not doing that here, as you're still where you were when the tournament started....

[ QUOTE ]
In that spirit, I started to "gamble" a little more with those types of hands, and I was able to take a few good pots. I had one where I limped with 9 10 and made a straight on the turn. I checked the turn and my opponent led out and bet all in (with the K that made my straight) I quickly called and showed him he was drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then you gave it all back, apparently.

As for the rest of the hand, A2s is not a hand you want to play from EP. It might work (for a little while) against weak players who'll pay off your flush, but once that third diamond hits, the good players will simply shut down. That means you have to semi-bluff in order to make the hand pay.

Given that you were in the hand, you were getting a little better than 4:1 to call at the flop, with a 4:1 underdog. That's a very narrow edge to push this early in a tourney, especially given that you had a big lead earlier and have given it away by the start of this hand.

Cris

[aces_full]

I made a mistake, the hand where I had the 910s and made the straight actually happened later in the tournament when I was already chip leader.

[aces_full]

River:
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I now had nearly 4000 in chips, and the former chip leader now had 400, and the guy with JJ was out. He even remarked how he was beat by the worst possible hand. He probably went off to tell his bad beat story.

But was it really a bad beat? I maintain no. The losers of that hand only have themselves to blame. I know full well I had no business playing the cards I did, but to me limping in for 20 seemed like a good bargain, especially since I figured I had good implied odds. The average flop was seen by 6, and there wasn't much pre-flop raising going on. I saw it as a chance to see what develops really cheaply and make some headway if it hits. If the flop missed me, I would certainly check and fold (even if I spiked an ace). Now the button was the chip leader, had position, and was holding paint. If I were him, I would have made it 40 to go. Then there's the SB with JJ, why didn't he raise, or if the button riased, re-raise? I wouldn't have even called down another 20 and been out of that hand. The way I see it, especially at NL, if you don't protect a good hand, you only have yourself to blame when you get drawn out on.

Well the river giveth, and the river taketh away. We were down to three players. I was still the leader, but second was close behind. The third player was on life support with about 600 chips in the SB and the blinds were 150/300. I was on the button with 66 and opened for 600. SB and BB both called. I spiked a set of 6's but there were two spades on board. I bet 600, SB called all in, BB called. Turn was a blank, I bet $1000 this time, BB called. River was Ks. I checked, BB went all in. Since I wanted a shot at winning, I folded. He showed the flush, SB was knocked out, I was guaranteed at least 2nd. I had lost the chip lead on that hand and I was never able to get it back.

[GoSox]

[ QUOTE ]
But was it really a bad beat? I maintain no. The losers of that hand only have themselves to blame. I know full well I had no business playing the cards I did, but to me limping in for 20 seemed like a good bargain

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is you didn't know you were limping for 20. If you're on the button you've got a good chance to limp for 20, but EP there is too high a chance you'll hit a raise. You're also potentially in a poor position for every round of betting as well and you've shown weakness.

Hey, sometimes it works and in this case it did, 'hero or zero'. Many of us want to consistently be in the money, not try to get a huge chip lead and risk elimination early on. If it works for you, stay with it...

[jaydoggie]

Toward the beginning of supersystem Doyle states this is the WRONG strategy for tournaments. I believe he says "tight is right" for tournaments. This strategy applies to no limit ring games where everyone has ALOT of chips on the table.

[sammiK7os]

Firstly, I dont believe the losers of this hand do only have themselves to blame. The guy that made the straight on the flop and went all in played it perfectly. Im not sure If i would of raised pre-flop on the button with AQos if I was him either. Depending on the size of my stack and my opponents, scince 2 had limped in in early position.

Secondly IMHO, you were lucky to win this, you limped in under the gun with a hand that you were only looking to make a flush with. You said you would of thrown away your hand if an ace hit so your just looking for a flush draw on the flop. Apart from you not having the right pot odds to do this preflop, you are totally overlooking the fact that if this flop hits you, you are drawing from bad position and more likely than not you will not get odds to draw anyway.