Sick of fish pandering

[Vehn]

A curious thing happens at the mid limits, mostly in B&amp;M's but you see it online as well ("nh"). The "good" players will constantly pander to the fish, to the point where its disgusting. And, while most fish are obviously pretty dumb, many of them understand at some level what is going on, and they take advantage of it. By that I mean they realize that as long as they keep playing, they can be as much of a<font color="white">-</font>fu<font color="black"></font>cktard as they want.

Well, I decided today I'm done with it. I'm no longer going to suck up to the dickheads. Screw it. Most of them are addicted gamblers anyways and no matter how badly they're treated at the table they'll be back to throw their money away regardless.

[The Dude]

Let me re-phrase what you're saying to make sure I get it.

"I'm tired of other people getting to be jack-asses while I have to be nice. From now on, if an ass sits at my table, I'm going to take that as an excuse to be a dick. After all, they're going to give me their money either way, right?"

Did I miss anything?

(BTW, I never suck up to fish - although I do occaisionally offer to buy them a drink if they are thinking of changing tables.)

[Clarkmeister]

We play in different environments so that may explain the difference, but here the fish can and do leave if people are being dicks to them. It happens all the time. Unlike Minnesota, they have many many options available to them here.

I shamelessly fish pander with the best of them, commisserating their "bad beats" and nodding agreement when they talk about how unlucky they are. I'm there to make money and this small investment of effort (I'm naturally pretty friendly anyways) helps my earn. Heck, not only does it keep them at the table, they will sometimes softplay me because I'm the only one bothering to be nice to them. I once had a bad player tell me "I know I would do better at a different table than you, but its not as much fun when you aren't at the table." He has fun, I have fun and make money. Everyone is happy.

Besides, in Vegas, if you aren't being nice to the fish (hence ignoring the regulars), then the regulars want to sit and do post-hand analysis on everything, and that to me is far more disgusting than fish pandering.

[Vehn]

There's nothing wrong with being nice to non-jerk fish. But what I'm saying is there's certain people who are complete asses and get away with it because they donate. I'm tired of being nice to those guys and it makes me sick to see other players pander to them.

[Lucky]

If you spend a large amount of time, and make a significant portion of your income from poker, you have demonstrated a willingness to tell the world to "f off." Despite the Poker Boom, it is still considered a somewhat sleazy way to make a living.

So continuing that ethos, it follows that one should be himself during the course of play as well. Clarkmeister may be naturally friendly, so his play is helped by continuing in that "vehn." Minnesota Vehn is naturally cantankerous and somewhat hostile. This should be integrated into his play.

Don't hold back. Be an a-hole. You're naturally ascerbic wit will come out even more, you'll have more fun at the table, and the chance I'll see you profiled on the Discovery Channel Serial Killer series will be greatly reduced (I'd put it at 13-1).

In the end, being an a-hole is -EV, but then so is spending a good amount of time playing poker. Have some fun; let the expletives fly at anyone who's not packing.

[Mike Gallo]

Lucky,

You just made me fall off of my chair.

[PuppetMaster]

Id imagine that most of the low-limit games you play in are laced with fish, so whether or not they leave your table wont really matter all that much.

[GuidoSarducci]

Sounds like tilt to me.

You could try ignoring them. I find the best universal "fook you" to be a monster stack of their chips in front of me. Be secure in the knowlege that, while everyone else is talking to the banker, you're robbing the bank.

Punish them financially, not verbally.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

most of the low-limit games you play

Low-limit?? I believe Vehn plays mostly 30/60.

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
most of the low-limit games you play

Low-limit?? I believe Vehn plays mostly 30/60.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? His ignorance led me to believe otherwise, perhaps he just claims to play 30/60, that is quite common around these parts.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I'm glad you wrote this second post. I almost replied to your first one, but I was not sure of your position. If I had replied, it would have been along the lines taken by Clarkmeister. I want a pleasant game because I want to enjoy myself, and I want the fish to have a good time and stick around.
The impression I got from your first post was that you disliked "pandering" to all bad players. Your second post clarified the issue. You dislike and won't pander to unpleasant people just because they play badly and donate. I have no argument with you on that issue. In fact, I have been instrumental in having a few of them thrown out of the cardroom.
I also think that Clarkmeister's point about being extra nice to fish is VERY important. They are often abused for playing badly, especially when they put a bad beat on a solid player. I want them to enjoy playing with me. After all, I am not going to make much or anything from the good players.
Regards,
Al

[Clarkmeister]

Vehn may be many things, but ignorant about poker isn't one of them.

[Myrtle]

OK……So you’re no longer going to “pander” to the bad mannered fish. Is that the gist of what you’re saying?

No problem on my part with that, however, does that mean that you’re going to go from “pandering” to saying nothing, or go from “pandering” to taking them on verbally when they miss-behave?

There is a difference to the table between “fish pandering”, no response and a response that might upset the table?

I’d be really carefully about exactly how you take them on when they exhibit “bad behavior”, as a happy table with the right mix of happy fish is probably the most +EV for a strong player.

Bad behavior is in the eyes of the beholder, so you must be careful. For example….Some of these characters will simply piss &amp; moan about bad beats. Let them do it. When they start to attack some of the happy fish however, it’s probably in the best interest of the whole table to intervene in an attempt to keep the good karma in order.

The key here is exactly HOW do you intervene? Make sure you do it on really cut &amp; dry issues, where nobody can misinterpret you motives. Be the “good guy” to their “bad guy” behavior. If the behavior is really outrageously bad (threatening, cursing, throwing cards or chips at the dealer or another player, etc.), ask the dealer to call the pit boss over.

When the boss gets there, calmly &amp; rationally explain the behavior of the offender and ask the boss for him to address it. Attempt to avoid getting into a verbal pissing contest with the idiot (remember the old saying… “Never argue with a moron, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!”).

Many “nice fish” are inexperienced at the tables, and have no idea how to handle theses situations, so it falls upon an experienced players shoulders to show them how to do it in a positive &amp; constructive way.

In all my years of live playing, I have only ONCE ever “put down” another players play, &amp; I did it for a very specific set of reasons. It was amazing how my actions quickly came back to me through friends, with a very negative slant!

I’ll bet that there are many 2+2’ers who’ve dealt with this issue. Perhaps they can share with us some of their methods? I’ve heard some GREAT one-liners that tend to put the morons in the place.

Has anyone got some to share?

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
Vehn may be many things, but ignorant about poker isn't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Vehn implied that he is going to "treat them badly". I think that just about every poker author alive has addressed this topic, either Vehn is too ignorant to understand this fact or he suffers some sort of personality disorder.

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]
he suffers some sort of personality disorder.

[/ QUOTE ]

A personality disorder? Is that similiar to excessive hostility towards a person you know absolutely nothing about?

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he suffers some sort of personality disorder.

[/ QUOTE ]

A personality disorder? Is that similiar to excessive hostility towards a person you know absolutely nothing about?

[/ QUOTE ]
When a person declares that they plan to "treat fish badly", then yes, it concerns me. If a newbe posted this everyone would be all over him, but because its a regular everyone nods their head.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Absolutely fantastic answer.

Vegas in particular has enough nasty old crone regulars to drive out the fish without listening to the idiotic advice of vehn here.

al

[bernie]

there was a beginner the other night in my game. nice guy. terrible player. about as green as they come. he would beat a couple 'think they are's' in a hand (not even close to maximizing what he should've made in the hand off these dips) and they would get pissed and mutter something just loud enough. i found myself clarifying stuff for him that was happening in the game. some stuff as basic as why the dealer flips over an exposed card from a folder, string betting or something. he seemed very thankful to me for taking the small time to point it out to him the why's of some stuff. he seemed to really like my idea of avoiding a string bet, if unsure how many chips to put out, by just grabbing a handful of chips, throwing them out, saying raise, then letting the dealer sort the right number of chips. the thought of that seemed to help get him in a more jovial mood.

the morons getting beat showed glowingly how they dont really know where their profits come from in the game.

in some ways, i hope some of these new players who go through this with jerks come back and beat the hell out of 'em. then say to them, 'does it feel better getting beat by me now that i'm better?'

if that ever happens, i hope im there for it.

b

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with being nice to non-jerk fish. But what I'm saying is there's certain people who are complete asses and get away with it because they donate. I'm tired of being nice to those guys and it makes me sick to see other players pander to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then I think you should just not comment to these players, and ignore them, however I dont think you should go at them head on and engage in any frivilous discussion that threathens the game, and enjoyment for other players.

[mike l.]

"I once had a bad player tell me "I know I would do better at a different table than you, but its not as much fun when you aren't at the table.""

hey and i meant that! clark was very very kind to me on my recent visit and it kept me off those crap tables nearly the whole time.

i like tommy and andy's advice best. it goes something like: be nice to the fish not because they are fish but because they are human beings.

[Homer]

Vegas in particular has enough nasty old crone regulars to drive out the fish without listening to the idiotic advice of vehn here.

Huh? All he said is that he is no longer going to put on a show for a'hole fish. What part of that statement is idiotic? In my opinion, it is idiotic to allow such a person to get away with acting that way.

-- Homer

[Vehn]

n/t

[Vehn]

no text.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

my post was made before I had read your second post. nice backtrack.

I pander to NO ONE who is being a jerk at the table. But I completely pander to nice fish when playing live.

al

[PuppetMaster]

"Most of them are addicted gamblers anyways and no matter how badly they're treated at the table they'll be back to throw their money away regardless."

This implies that you plan to "treat them badly". If you dont want to pander, fine. But dont make them look like idiots at the table by engaging in pointless arguing. Just keep your mouth shut, and all will be fine; however, Im not sure that they are all gonna stay if you humiliate them. So once again, just keep your mouth shut.

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
my post was made before I had read your second post. nice backtrack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try reading a thread before posting on it.

[Vehn]

Its extremely evident you have no idea what I'm talking about here. Instead of being an ass and letting everyone know it, why don't you a) not respond to posts you don't know anything about and b) don't respond to my posts at all.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Vehn implied that he is going to "treat them badly". I think that just about every poker author alive has addressed this topic, either Vehn is too ignorant to understand this fact or he suffers some sort of personality disorder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you're calling out people for being ignorant, it seems appropriate to point out that numerous well-respected people in the poker community have written about how it would be better to kick out some of these players rather than pander to them just because they are donators. Have you ever played in a cardroom?

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure that they are all gonna stay if you humiliate them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care if the jerks leave and don't come back. Rick Nebiolo has written eloquently on this topic a number of times in the past both here and on RGP. Andy Fox has as well. The game is likely to get better, even if these jerks are big donators. And if Vehn does decide to toss some venom back at the jerk, it'll probably be better for his game than having the jerk abusing the pleasant recreational players there to have a good time and gamble it up.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
my post was made before I had read your second post. nice backtrack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Backtrack?

I'm no longer going to suck up to the dickheads.

I thought Vehn's initial post was pretty straightforward and I agree w/ it wholeheartedly.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You can have the last word, as you always insist on doing, no matter how much of ass you make of yourself. I stand by my comments.

al

[Vehn]

I agree 100%. Your comments speak for themselves.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

the problem with vehn's post is the fact that he is always extremely hostile, clearly showing a great deal of hatred and malice for everyone, so assuming that he meant ONLY the obnoxious fish was not clear.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'm still willing to lend you that buck.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
And if Vehn does decide to toss some venom back at the jerk, it'll probably be better for his game than having the jerk abusing the pleasant recreational players

[/ QUOTE ]

from all the people so far who have posted in this thread, it's quite clear that vehn was far from clear about the distinction between playing back at true jerks who ruin the game, and just plain being a jerk to the fish himself. Thus the confusion. Few will argue about flaming back at a player who is being nasty and ruining an otherwise good game. if he had been very clear about that, instead of vague, the confusion here would not exist, and there would not have been much debate on the subject.

al

[Ulysses]

Fair enough, I guess. I just made the assumption that he wasn't just a dumb a-hole who would abuse pleasant-mannered fishy players.

[mike l.]

"Its extremely evident you have no idea what I'm talking about here. Instead of being an ass and letting everyone know it, why don't you a) not respond to posts you don't know anything about and b) don't respond to my posts at all."

it looks like more than a few people were confused by the intention of your first post. so maybe you should learn to post a little more clearly before no one replies anymore at all? seriously vehn, accept some blame and be a little more thick-skinned, the majority of people were not clear on what you were trying to get across here. name-calling will just run the topic you were trying to bring up into the ground and irritate people. maybe start over?

[Mike Gallo]

Really? His ignorance led me to believe otherwise, perhaps he just claims to play 30/60, that is quite common around these parts.


I have to disagree. I think Vehn has a solid game, based on his posts.

[Vehn]

OK but what fun is that?

[Vehn]

I thought my original post was pretty clear, but then I made an immediate followup that further clarified it.

But I guess not?

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[JayKon]

Doh!?!

I was actually OK with this thread before this. Having followed your posts for a long time, I have to beleive that this one was a joke and that you're not serious.

However, given the flame war developing, it may be best if you take the subject to RGP where it is better suited.

Jay

[shemp]

Wow.

Let me say this about that.

When I read the initial post I wasn't sure whether Vehn was irate at:

a) People who are nice to poor players in a cloying and condescending manner that is transparent to the poor player and makes one's skin crawl.

b) Poor players who's poor play is such that they thier crania may be justly likened to the business end of the phallus

c) Poor players who behave in a manner that suggests their crania, etc. etc.

I just didn't think it was coherent, so I reserved judgment. It came to pass that the post became a Horseshack Test (Welcome Back) known as The Great Vehn Fish Pandering Controversy of 2004, and a referendum on Authorial Intent -- which, should have been unneccessary given a clarifying post.

Peoples is Peoples. People are not Fish. So be kind to the Fish, for they are Peoples. Please do not pander to someone whose only attribute is poor play, but treat them with kindness and dignity or indifference if you please. If a person combines poor play with poor behaviour, well, find a mix that works for you and the game -- I would not object to them being made to feel unwelcome, if provided it didn't sour the whole worx, which seems to be a much tougher trick than it need be.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought Vehn's initial post was pretty straightforward and I agree w/ it wholeheartedly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ulysses, perhaps you speak bettern vehn than the rest of us, because I too misunderstood his original post. It sounded like he just wanted to be an Ass (with a capital A) to the fish just because others are nice.

I completely agree that just because someone is a donor does not give them the right to mistreat others (including the dealer), and they should be removed from the table. I will work on my improving my ability to interpret vehn.

[PuppetMaster]

said a single word about having the players removed from the table. All he said was that he wouldnt pander to them and they would return no matter how "badly they are treated".

I can understand asking the floor manager to remove the player, but getting into an egotistical dick measuring contest with a hostile-fish doesnt seem like a good idea to me, but then again, my ego is about 1/10 of the size of the average 2+2 poster.

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my post was made before I had read your second post. nice backtrack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Backtrack?

I'm no longer going to suck up to the dickheads.

I thought Vehn's initial post was pretty straightforward and I agree w/ it wholeheartedly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Myrtle]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/comics/Rhymes_with_Orange.dtl

(perhaps looking for anonymity after raising PF and capping every street with a Granny Mae)

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Ulysses]

I only responded to your post because you felt the need to start gratuitously flaming (calling Vehn ignorant and questioning whether or not he actually plays 30/60). Even after much clarification in this thread, you said:

But dont make them look like idiots at the table by engaging in pointless arguing. Just keep your mouth shut, and all will be fine; however, Im not sure that they are all gonna stay if you humiliate them.

Here you imply that you want these jackasses to stay and you don't want to make them look like idiots at the table. Well, guess what, I want them to leave and I'm happy to make them look like an idiot at the table if that will make the game better for everyone.

getting into an egotistical dick measuring contest with a hostile-fish doesnt seem like a good idea to me

That sounds like a good idea to me, but only because my penis is so gigantic.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand asking the floor manager to remove the player

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't answer my question - have you played in a cardroom? If so, where?

While this answer looks good on paper, in California at least, a guy can do a lot of things that make the game very unpleasant before there's even a chance that even a heavy-toking regular can get him removed.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds like a good idea to me, but only because my penis is so gigantic.

[/ QUOTE ]

God damn thing must be a quarter mile long!!

Damn, next time there's a chest-beating ego contest, be sure to show up, just to add flavor to the whole thing!

Great line!

al

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
Here you imply that you want these jackasses to stay and you don't want to make them look like idiots at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is what seems to always happen, and what Vehn was talking about.

[theBruiser500]

I find this thread amusing.

Are you guys are doing all this arguing and flaming the same way friends joke around or with true malice and annoyance??

danny

[pretender2k]

I will refer you to this post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=530025&amp;page=0&amp;view=co llapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post546924

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, I guess. I just made the assumption that he wasn't just a dumb a-hole who would abuse pleasant-mannered fishy players.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you possibly make that assumption if you had read more than a dozen of his posts?

Sems like a good time to get my two cents in against Vehn and make a poker related post at the same time! :0

[Lori]

the problem with vehn's post is the fact that he is always extremely hostile, clearly showing a great deal of hatred and malice for everyone,

Why would someone who shows hatred and malice towards everyone make numerous posts that help the people that he hates?

Vehn speaks his mind, is that so bad?

Lori

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
but then again, my ego is about 1/10 of the size of the average 2+2 poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, I wonder /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[NaobisDad]

Judging from the posts in this section lately, it's quickly becoming RGP.

Why don't we get some more pro's and rocks to the forum so we can FLAAMEEEE 'em