A river checkraise

[Diplomat]

100-200 11-handed HE, B+M. The game is good but far from great, and I'm waiting for a seat in a much better (looking) 50-100 game.

I am in the big blind and am dealt 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG, a very aggressive and somewhat loose player opens for a raise. One poor MP player cold-calls. The small blind calls. I call.

The flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Small blind checks, I bet. UTG thinks for a couple seconds and calls. The MP player calls. The small blind folds.

The turn is the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet and both call.

The river is the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, UTG bets, MP calls, I checkraise, UTG three-bets. MP folds and I call.

Comments? (esp. on the river)

-Diplomat

[astroglide]

for the extremely confident/ballsy, a 'reraise and fold to a reraise' may be ok if you've got it in you. i like the river checkraise, not a fan of the flop lead.

[Thats Interesting!]

He's got KQh or close to this. He did not want to raise the flop, or the turn cuz of the MP. He played it perfect waiting for a future chance to be able to raise. Your hand can only beat a bluff now! I dont like the check raise on that river for 2 reasons. 1. It might not work. 2. It might just work to well. Cool!

[Pipedream]

Nah, I bet his opponent just overplayed AQ at the river.

Pipedream

[Kenshin]

How would you have played the flop then, astro? check raise? I dislike check-calling when I have so many outs.

[GOODBEATGUY2001]

Although that 3bet on the river is scary, your call against a known loose aggressive probably won you the pot. I thought you played the whole sequence well.

[ShortStack]

This was a very intriguing hand and one that made me think alot. I am new to the game, having played less than 2 months, but this hand twisted me into thinking about the game in a way that I would hope a forum like this would make me think. To the extent that my analysis is incompetent, I hope that all will help me correct my wrong thinking. I count on it. I acknowlede that all posters in MID-, HIGH- Stakes are beyond me in knowledge and experience which is why I seek your counsel.

I liked the pre-flop call with 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. That was fairly easy.

With a flop of A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, that gives our hero in the BB with a second pair and a kicker lower than the board. As first to act, I think that checking and calling seems appropriate.

With a Turn of 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif giving our hero a non-nut flush, I really favor check raising here, raising back if reraised and calling afterward. Shouldn't you be betting good hands on the flop, but then check-raising often on the turn? This seems routine since you'll be mucking many hands right here. I'm thinking of the big picture here and if you balance your play, you will be difficult to play against in other hands.

I'm having this crazy notion that UTG has QQ. This is a good hand to raise with UTG, makes sense to call with with the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gifflop, O.K. to call with on the Turn, but I would hurt everyone I could if the River was a Queen.

What was the outcome?

[ShortStack]

Now I am drunk. I have to ask myself "What hands would the loose-aggressive player raise with pre-flop?" Since I'm a little loose myself, here goes:
PAIRS; AA-77; Suited Connectors; AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, ONE-GAP Suited; AQs, KJs, QTs, TWO-GAP Suited; AJs, KTs, THREE-GAP Suited; ATs. Throw in unsuited AK, AQ, and AJ, and maybe A8s, certainly not Kxs.

Now my crazy brain asks "What hands from the original raising hands would UTG call with (not raise) on the flop if he were rational?" Flop was A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Wouldn't a normal player raise with: AA, AKs, AK, AQs, AQ (?}, AJs, ATs regardless of the suits? Possible calling hands UTG; KK, QQ, JJ, and TT. In my mind, these are all check and call hands given the flop.

88s and 77s are folded if anyone bets, but A8s is possible.

IFF these are heart-suited then look out for; JTs, QJs, KQs, QTs, KJs, KTs, A8s.

The Turn was a 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Which hands would UTG call with and not raise? None of the flushes (Possibly wrong. I am thinking of playing straight forward here as I am new to the game.) KK, QQ, JJ, TT.

RIVER; Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Our Anti-Hero has trip Queens.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
for the extremely confident/ballsy, a 'reraise and fold to a reraise' may be ok if you've got it in you. i like the river checkraise, not a fan of the flop lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Astro,

I considered 4-betting the river, but was not sure if my opponent would 5-bet with a set or two pair. On reflection I think a 4-bet is in order.

I think I know what you mean about the flop lead. I think I may have been better off checkraising the flop and leading the turn rather than betting the flop.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got KQh or close to this. He did not want to raise the flop, or the turn cuz of the MP. He played it perfect waiting for a future chance to be able to raise. Your hand can only beat a bluff now! I dont like the check raise on that river for 2 reasons. 1. It might not work. 2. It might just work to well. Cool!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Interesting,

one thing to keep in mind is that my opponent was very aggressive. Consequently, he likely would have raised the flop with a flushdraw, especially the nut or second nut flushdraw. Against less loose-aggressive opponents, I agree with your line of thinking.

On the river I thought I very likely held the best hand, and that my UTG opponent would bet any pair or aces, kings, or queens. I also thought MP would call one bet on the river with any pair of aces, kings, or queens.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
Although that 3bet on the river is scary, your call against a known loose aggressive probably won you the pot. I thought you played the whole sequence well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but I still think I made two mistakes, one on the flop (checkraise instead of bet) and one on the river (failure to 4-bet).

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Welcome to poker and to the forum.

I dislike the check/call on the flop simply because it gives me the worst chance of winning the hand. I bet the flop representing an ace, hoping to fold pairs less than that and hands I would like fold (like KQ with a heart, or J9). The same would be accomplished by checkraising the flop and betting the turn, and I'm getting good returns on my investment.

On the turn I bet, still representing an ace. I agree that I could have checkraised here and trapped a lone K or Q of hearts for a bet or two.

See my other post above as to why I checkraised the river.

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi diplomat
yeah well, the pre-flop call is o.k., but not as good as you might be thinking it is. you also are not factoring in field conditions, relative position, etc. if you were, you would have check-called the flop, and either check-raised or check-called the turn.

you need to understand how your hand is going to jive given the field conditions. you got stumpy on your left in this one. stumpy's gonna bet, stumpy's gonna raise. this is known. with no problem, you should see that you are in relative LP. are you on the button? when you were a kid and all the other kids were getting 10 speeds, your dad gave you a 5 speed, and told you to make do. no, you're not on the button here. but you have relative last position. stumpy is your 5 speed. make do. what do we see instead;

you bet out on the flop. maybe only the SB will call diplomat, but in my opinion, you're better off having stumpy determine your relative position. you don't need all the bells and whistles. you've got stumpy.

on the turn, brreinngg, brreinngg, here comes diplomat. whhishhh. there he goes. you don't need all that. you've got stumpy.

on the river, from the other direction, "hey, look at me dad! i'm surfing!". and now, here comes stumpy.

so alright.'56 was a rough year to be in junior high. and you're improvement in math wasn't easy. no one is saying that you shouldn't be rewarded for the C. but when it comes to small suited connectors, remember stumpy;


he peddles head down, gravity centered low. he has no bells or whistles, and sometimes stubs his toe.
stumpy don't give free-cards. he puts them in his spokes.
dealers don't like stumpy cause he never gives em tokes.
he'll give you last position though, so check-call if you must.
ask stumpy for the button and he'll knock you on your butt.
so watch-out here comes stumpy. there's no stopping him now.
his 3-bet at the cross-road caught you surfing, "oh, oh!" kapow!!

[ShortStack]

Why do I get the feeling that I just smoked an illegal substance after reading this? Should I be tripping on something here like peyote?

I know there is rhyme and reason there somewhere, I just can't seem to get off my tricycle.

Sincerely, good luck wherever you play!

[Gamblor]

Who doesn't like the PF call?

suited connectors will kill you in such an aggressive game, especially with the big man UTG trying to bully the table.

He'll make you pay dearly to catch, and with another player in there, you might be facing 2 and 3 bets on every street to complete any straight and flush draws you will most likely be on with a hand like 98s.

I'd call with a small-med pocket pair and hope to flop a set- then you'd be paid off handsomely. But any hand that isn't made on the flop will have a tough time indeed in such an aggressive game with such an aggressive opponent with position on you.

[Diplomat]

Good point, on reflection I think my pre-flop call was borderline, but only because the game was aggressive.

I'll be playing in the game again tomorrow, say hello if you are around.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Pipedream gets the prize, my opponent showed AQo with the Q of hearts. I'm really not sure how bad I screwed up this hand, if at all, but I feel like I did. My pre-flop was so-so, my flop was ok, the turn was ok, and my river was so-so. On reflection:

Fold or call pre-flop -- I think it's close.
Checkraise the flop.
Checkraise or lead the turn.
4-bet the river.

Again I left a number of bets on the table.

-Diplomat

[Gamblor]

I won't be there, I PMed you about that - school requires a little more concentration for the next week or so...

But wouldn't things be just grand if the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif fell?

I'm lookin forward to meeting you - from what I've gathered from your posts you're a pretty tough player (although seems to me you're slowing down too much on the turn and river when the bet doubles - does this imply stakes that are slightly too high for your bankroll, or something else?).

On the other hand, when we do meet up, do me a favour and stay out of pots with me... hopefully you're worried in the same way /images/graemlins/cool.gif...

Maybe I'll just sit 5-10 if you're in the big game, it will probably have a higher earn /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm lookin forward to meeting you - from what I've gathered from your posts you're a pretty tough player

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought of myself as a tough player until today. I expected to be there until 10, but left at 7. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

At least I made money last week.

-Diplomat

[Pipedream]

Ya dude but you got roughed up pretty badly. Couldn't believe that Quads over Quads loss. And it just HAD to be at 100-200 eh? LOL!~~~~Insane beat!

Pipedream

[Pipedream]

The call preflop is very standard and folding shouldn't even cross your mind. I'm very tight, but getting 8-1 with a medium suited connector and closing the action I'm seeing the flop.

As for the flop, a checkraise is probably a better play here. You've flopped a made hand and a draw so you have some real power in your hand. If you bet out and UTG raises he may cut off some of the field, and your draw doesn't like that.

On the river, it's highly likely that your hand is best. If UTG held a larger flush than you he probably would have let you know on the turn or at least raised your flop bet on the come. My guess is you were just a little shocked at him 3-betting your river checkraise. He overplayed his hand and you just didn't put enough thought into the fact that him holding a bigger flush was low percentage.

The end.

Pipedream

[Gamblor]

The call preflop is very standard and folding shouldn't even cross your mind. I'm very tight, but getting 8-1 with a medium suited connector and closing the action I'm seeing the flop.

Even if you flop a big draw, how much are you going to pay to get there? The flop hit him as hard as it could have, but what if the flop comes something like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

Those kinds of flops are much more likely, and now he's stuck on second pair or a gutshot with a big pot and extremely aggressive players.

Even an open ender he might be paying multiple bets on every street. Mistakes compound. I'm simply saying the call isn't that huge of a mistake, but a fold should be considered.

As for the flop, a checkraise is probably a better play here. You've flopped a made hand and a draw so you have some real power in your hand. If you bet out and UTG raises he may cut off some of the field, and your draw doesn't like that.

Agreed. A checkraise will almost certainly get 3-bet by the aggressive player. You're still even money against a big A, so worst case is the weaklings call the 3-bet cold with a weaker A.

I still think the stakes may be an issue for Diplomat, thus only the call on the river. I don't know the size of his roll, and I'm sure he's smart about managing it, but 200 bucks is still 200 bucks.

[Pipedream]

"Even if you flop a big draw, how much are you going to pay to get there?..."

So you're suggesting that in aggressive games NOT to play draws cause it'll be expensive?

"The flop hit him as hard as it could have, but what if the flop comes something like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?"

If you play well post flop, you won't be getting married to flops like this and they won't be an issue.

Pipedream

[daryn]

i don't see how a winning poker player could consider a preflop fold here.

[stoxtrader]

PF - I call as well. 8-1 odds.
Flop check/call is my play as well, bet or checkraise and you risk a raise from a likely Ace or overpair
Turn: fine
River: 4bet it and call a 5th bet.

[DrSavage]

I think this river is a must cap.
EDIT: Didn't realise that 4 bet is not a cap, not so clear anymore but I'd still probably raise again.

[Gamblor]

Do you just search around all my posts looking to pick a fight with the Jew?

Anti semite. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness, either I'm a losing player (if you'd like to argue with "My First PokerTracker database" by all means go ahead) or you disagree with some part of my analysis of the situation at hand.

Care to explain yourself?

[Diplomat]

It would be very difficult for me to call a five-bet here, and that is part of the reason I wussed out on the river. And I'm not sure he would only five-bet with a flush.

-Diplomat