JJ in the big blind

Me again, playing the usual Kennedy/Sacagawea stakes at PP (that's $.50/1 for those who don't see Kennedy too often), having more problems with pocket pairs preflop and beyond. This is the first hand of the session:


UTG limps, 3 folds to MP1 and MP2 who limp, fold to the button, SB limps. I have JsJd.


Q1: Check or raise? I probably have the best hand at the moment, but with the early and mid-position limps and the fact that nobody will fold if I raise, is it right to raise for value here? In other words, will JJ against 4 players (UTG, 2 MP, and SB) come out ahead in the long run?


I checked. Flop brings me 7c 8s 9s. SB checks to me.


Q2: Bet or try to get a check-raise? Bet this, right? I cannot possibly allow free cards on the straight/flush draws, I'm leading now, and I have a few (not too many) ways of improving. Check-raising seems very wrong to me, but I want to make sure.


So I bet, UTG and MP1 fold, MP2 and SB call.


Turn: [7c 8s 9s] Jh


Great... I make trips, but I'm not happy about it. SB checks.


Q3: Check or bet? It's entirely possible for them to have been going for a flush draw, in which case I must bet and not allow free cards. However, if someone has a T, I'm most likely going to get raised, and I'll wish I hadn't bet, because I would be putting in two bets for draw instead of one (assuming that the straight is going to bet).


I bet (though now I think I should have check-called). I got raised by MP2, SB folds.


Q4: With 10 outs (plus maybe 2 Ts, hoping that he doesn't have TQ), I'm getting 1:3.6 odds of making a winning hand and 7:1 pot odds, I'm justified in chasing him down, right?


I called. The river brought a Kd and no help.


Q5: What do I do?


I'm flustered and confused, assumed I was beat, so I check-folded top set. If I had a chance to do it again, I would check-call.


Please tear my play into pieces, but explain carefully as you remove the shreds of ignorance which may be costing me money.

Before the flop just call. You're out of position and you dont usually like to build a big pot w/jj unless just about everybody is in (creating a bigger pot is really only advantageous when you flop a set). Otherwise you would prefer to have a small pot when you see a good flop for your jacks.


As for the flop, you are right that free cards are dangerous, but your attempt at a checkraise can force everybody who will call to pay 2 bets as opposed to just one. If you have any clue that a bet will maybe come from late position then checkraising would be a better try. I wouldn't try to bet most of the time in this spot unless one or two of the players on my left were aggressive and might put in a raise for me after i bet.


On the turn you may as well bet again, it looks natural to bet again (then again with a scare card on the turn, checking looks natural too I suppose), you don't want to let a flush draw off cheaply if nobody has a 10. If you get raised its no big deal since you have plenty of outs, besides if a raise comes and several players call the raise may not even cost you anything.


Of course you are justified to call down here to try to fill, anything else would be totally insane.


As for the river this is an awful fold. Sure you will be beaten plenty of times but the pot is big and there are several hands you can beat like a set, two pair, or something like a busted flush draw trying to buy the pot. This is not even close.


Kris

Is it right to raise for value here? In other words, will JJ against 4 players (UTG, 2 MP, and SB) come out ahead in the long run?


Yes, raising here is a raise for value (especially against limpers). JJ will win more than its fair share against four opponents, so you're making money off of every dollar that goes into the pot pre-flop. However, there are other reasons you may not want to raise this hand. If you raise and bet out on the flop, all the chasers will be getting correct odds to call your bet with bad draws. However, if you check pre-flop, you can now checkraise the flop and eliminate bare aces, kings and queens.


Getting back to your hand, I'd checkraise this flop because I'd be pretty certain that someone in late position will bet. Check-raising could allow me to eliminate overcards or gutshots and charge the draws on the installment plan.


When the jack comes down on the turn, I'd still bet against two opponents. There is still a good chance you're ahead (flush draws and two pair hands are likely) and you don't want to give out a free card to the flush. Even if you're behind, you have a lot of outs.


I would have called on the river just because I've seen players bet two pair hands like this too often. It'll be tough when you get shown the straight, but my guess is you'll win enough hands like this to make a call worth the money.


Rube

Actually raising against specifically 3 or 4 opponents with JJ is a bad idea. JJ plays well against 1,2 or 7 or more opponents, it does worst in those "in between" situations.


Kris

>Me again, playing the usual Kennedy/Sacagawea

>stakes at PP (that's $.50/1 for those who don't

>see Kennedy too often), having more problems

>with pocket pairs preflop and beyond. This is

>the first hand of the session:


>UTG limps, 3 folds to MP1 and MP2 who limp, fold

>to the button, SB limps. I have JsJd.


>Q1: Check or raise? I probably have the best

>hand at the moment, but with the early and mid-

>position limps and the fact that nobody will

>fold if I raise, is it right to raise for value

>here? In other words, will JJ against 4 players

>(UTG, 2 MP, and SB) come out ahead in the long

>run?


It depends. I think it's close either way. Technically, you'll win your fair share if all hands go to showdown and there is no more betting. But position works against you here and you may have to lay down because of bad position later. The better you play, the more you should be inclined to build a pot with JJ. Also, the more aggressive your opponents are the more inclined I'd be to check and try to trap with a favorable flop. Also, the more aggressive your opponents are, the more they will push you into laying down good hands on later streets so again you would be more inclined to check since you're getting less of the equity in the pot than your hand strength dictates.


>I checked. Flop brings me 7c 8s 9s. SB checks to >me.


>Q2: Bet or try to get a check-raise? Bet this,

>right? I cannot possibly allow free cards on the

>straight/flush draws, I'm leading now, and I

>have a few (not too many) ways of improving.

>Check-raising seems very wrong to me, but I want

>to make sure.


Say you bet and everyone calls. Would you be happy with this? It would mean you probably have 4 outs (the tens) and will split the pot if you hit.


Say you checkraised. Now it depends on where the bet comes from. If the bet comes one seat to your left and there are a number of callers and you raise then you are likely building a pot for someone else. Now if the bet comes from one seat to your right and you raise, you may be able to remove some people from contention.


So I would check and fold if a lot of people are guaranteed to see the turn. I would check-raise if I thought it might limit the field.


>So I bet, UTG and MP1 fold, MP2 and SB call.


>Turn: [7c 8s 9s] Jh


>Great... I make trips, but I'm not happy about

>it. SB checks.


>Q3: Check or bet? It's entirely possible for

>them to have been going for a flush draw, in

>which case I must bet and not allow free cards.

>However, if someone has a T, I'm most likely

>going to get raised, and I'll wish I hadn't bet,

>because I would be putting in two bets for draw

>instead of one (assuming that the straight is

>going to bet).


There's four to a straight on board. So if you check and are raised, you will have to invest 3 bets to see a showdown. If you check and call, it's two bets. In both cases you might improve. I would opt to put in 2 bets and see a showdown.


>I bet (though now I think I should have check-

>called). I got raised by MP2, SB folds.


>Q4: With 10 outs (plus maybe 2 Ts, hoping that

>he doesn't have TQ), I'm getting 1:3.6 odds of

>making a winning hand and 7:1 pot odds, I'm

>justified in chasing him down, right?


Yes, but you know this.


>I called. The river brought a Kd and no help.


>Q5: What do I do?


Fold. Against a habitual bluffer I call.


>I'm flustered and confused, assumed I was beat,

>so I check-folded top set. If I had a chance to

>do it again, I would check-call.


>Please tear my play into pieces, but explain

>carefully as you remove the shreds of ignorance

>which may be costing me money.