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Diplomat
02-19-2004, 05:03 PM
75-150 HE 11-handed, the table is about 2 hours old and is not bad, but not particularly good -- usually 3 or 4 players to a flop for 2 bets.

You are UTG +1 and limp with 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Your image is a little loose and aggressive, and you are known as an accomplished no-limit player. The next player, a decent winning player, raises. A player in MP cold-calls. Folded to the big blind, who is a young white kid who you think is tight but a little too aggressive, and currently is playing higher than usual for him, three-bets. You call, as does the original raiser and the cold-caller.

The flop is Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. The big blind bets, you call, the original raiser calls, the cold-caller folds.

The turn is the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The big blind bets, you raise, the original raiser thinks for about 10 seconds and folds, the big blind re-raises, you 4-bet, he 5-bets, you call.

The river is A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. He bets and you call.

Questions:

What does the big blind have?

Did you play your hand poorly on any street, and if so, why?

Results and thoughts to follow.

-Diplomat

andyfox
02-19-2004, 05:26 PM
"What does the big blind have?"

A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif? A-A? Q-Q? 9-9? I vote for A-A.

"Did you play your hand poorly on any street, and if so, why?"

Pre-flop. I would have folded orginally, UTG+1, with pocket 4s in an 11-handed game. I stopped losing set over set when I stopped limping with small pocket pairs. Had I not, I would have folded on the second opportunity when it was two more bets to me.

I'd have raised right away on the flop, but that's just me, and certainly a case can be made for calling. And I guess a case can be made for just calling the 3-bet on the turn and raising the river; you probably lose the same 6 bets when you lose, but make an extra one (or two) when he might have folded to the 4-bet on the turn.

J.A.Sucker
02-19-2004, 07:27 PM
You played badly even bringing the hand in. Small pairs up front in higher limit games get you broke. Ask snakehead.

mikelow
02-19-2004, 07:48 PM
Missed a cap on the flop, and a raise on the river.

Were you really worried about a bigger set? I'm certainly raising the river.

Diplomat
02-19-2004, 07:50 PM
Read it again. Did I say I held 44?

I'm definitely not an accomplished no-limit player.

-Diplomat

Pipedream
02-19-2004, 08:04 PM
If I recall correctly, I was still in the game with you at that point. I would definately not be coming in with tiny pairs in EP with the aggression level at that table. The original limp with the 44 is definately not as bad a play as calling two more bets cold with it though. As for postflop, he overplayed his hand by one raise. I remember this pot and thinking I'de stake my left nut that 'white kid' has QQ.

Pipedream

J.A.Sucker
02-19-2004, 09:00 PM
Sorry. I meant "one" not "you" - I don't really care who this persone is, it's still not a play that is good for "one's" wallet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

FWIW: Accomplished NL or PL players are often live ones in limit games, and vice versa. There are very few Ray Zee's around.

Diplomat
02-19-2004, 09:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I meant "one" not "you" - I don't really care who this persone is, it's still not a play that is good for "one's" wallet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

FWIW: Accomplished NL or PL players are often live ones in limit games, and vice versa. There are very few Ray Zee's around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naa, I was being short. Agreed and agreed though. He's not a -bad- limit player, that's for sure, but his NL game is much, much better than his limit game.

-Diplomat

Ulysses
02-19-2004, 09:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Missed a cap on the flop, and a raise on the river.
..
Were you really worried about a bigger set? I'm certainly raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the river? After 5 bets on the turn, I'm expecting to be shown QQ but hope he is overplaying AA. That Ace on the river dashes most of my remaining hope, but I crying call hoping to be shown AQ or KK.

mikelow
02-20-2004, 12:16 AM
I would not be in for three bets preflop out of position.

Having gone this far, I make a crying call on the river, hoping to see AQ.

Ulysses
02-20-2004, 01:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I would not be in for three bets preflop out of position.
...
Having gone this far, I make a crying call on the river, hoping to see AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ both of your statements. Was obviously confused by your answer, so glad you misread it!

elysium
02-20-2004, 02:20 AM
hi diplomat
when you aren't consistantly getting 6 or more in on the flop in a game with opponents who quickly drop out after the flop, then you shouldn't be entering in with 44 from EP. what you need diplomat are opponents who hang in there till the river, if 5 or 6 are seeing the flop, or opponents who like to do some positioning early by raising for free-cards and semi-bluffing. this is exactly the type of field you don't want to enter 44 into. even under the best conditions, you are always correct to muck it from that poition. everything written in this post so far is screaming fold pre-flop.

diplomat, you won this hand. but you would have been better to lose. can you enter 44 from that position? yes. however, the requirements for entry....whew. and you would like an aggressive on your left when you do. you got him on your right!. sure if you get heads up you now act last, but if you think that you'll get heads up, that's not a reason for entering in with 44, that's a reason not to. the only time it plays well heads up is from LP or blinds. this is exactly how not to do it. he's got KK.

you also want one raiser pre-flop. MP is the earliest. you want one or two limpers, and 3 or 4 sure to follow. you want a crowd that likes to come in if 3 or more are in. you like callers and hang toughs. in this situation, you like a raise any way you can get it without making the raise yourself. if it comes from your immediate left, great. you need to consider what it is that you're trying to accomplish diplomat. think.

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 03:03 AM
For pete's sake. I was not the guy with 44. Read the responses for details.

-Diplomat

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 03:21 AM
Ok, in case it was not too obvious, I was the big blind. And in case it was not too obvious, I did hold QQ.

The nature of my post was more to try to figure out his logic though the hand. I had a bit of respect for this guy, but I know he can be a live one in limit games. I was suprized by his play on all streets.

Obviously I agree with everyone that the pre-flop stinks, be it the open-limp or calling 2 more cold when action is back to him. I also think the optimal flop play is to raise, because surely I have a big pair and will re-raise (or check-raise the turn). Also, I doubt the pre-flop cold-caller or the original raiser would fold for 2 bets but call 1 bet on the flop with anything he would want them to call with (overcards but not pairs, etc.).

It should be pretty obvious that I have either aces or queens when I three-bet the turn, and a distant second are 99 and A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif. If I am stepping out on a limb with AQs or KK, he would be better off raising the river when a blank hits in order to extract the maximum. And as was pointed out, I might let go of a hand he would want me to call with if he 4-bets. If he 4-bets the turn he wins 4 bets maximum when his hand is good, and looses 6 when his hand is not good. If he waits for the river he wins 5 when his hand is good, and looses 6 when his hand is no good. So again I thought his 4-bet was questionable.

Given that I 5-bet the turn and his worst card came on the river, can he call the river (despite the pot size)?

-Diplomat

ShortStack
02-20-2004, 04:18 AM
This was a disappointing post for me. I laid it all out, thought hard, was beginning to get a feel for what was going on (I've been playing less than 2 months) and then you let us know that you are not the one with 44. One of the hardest pieces of this puzzle was you going in with 44 "UTG + 1." But now it's not worth thinking about as your original lack of clarity has sabotaged 15-20 minutes of effort (I realize that the experienced posters can get the feel of this hand in a minute or less, but I am using your posts as an opportunity to think about the game.)

I should muck this post. But I didn't. Please strive for clarity.

P.S. I respect all posters here and almost apologize if I "ranted." If MY ignorance caused this, then please accept two apologies. I look forward to all correspondence.

Ulysses
02-20-2004, 04:25 AM
He has to call the river.

It would have been sweeter if you had checkraised the river, though. You can put him on 22, 44, or 99 on the turn, right? Well, few players with those hands could resist betting the river if you check, even after the turn 5-bet. In fact, many who put you on QQ on the turn would change their read to KK to give themselves an excuse to bet the river. That would have been perfect. Maybe that's not true at 75-150, but it's definitely true at 40-80, and given the action in this hand, I bet it would be true here. And mike l. would love it!

Nice hand.

elysium
02-20-2004, 08:00 AM
hi diplomat
i see that now. glad you'd never try this one. play strongly in the marginal areas if your raises are getting too much respect.

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 12:28 PM
Hi Ulysses,

I was wondering if someone would suggest checkraising the river. At the time all I could think about was "wow there is 2600 in the pot, I bet the rational nuts", but on reflection I thought checkraising the river might have been a good play. The more I think about it, it is probably the correct play.

Why does he have to call the river? When the ace comes, the only hands he can beat are AQ and KK, and I'm not going to 5-bet the turn with either of those.

-Diplomat

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]

play strongly in the marginal areas if your raises are getting too much respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good point, and I did do just that after this hand. This hand was profitable over the couple hours that followed, not just on its own.

-Diplomat

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 12:35 PM
I would be interested reading about how you broke down the play of the 44 hand. That's actually what I asked for. Whether or not I was that player does not really matter.

Welcome to the board and poker.

-Diplomat

Ulysses
02-20-2004, 02:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why does he have to call the river? When the ace comes, the only hands he can beat are AQ and KK, and I'm not going to 5-bet the turn with either of those.


[/ QUOTE ]

He has a set. He thinks you're overaggressive and since there was little action on the flop, he may consider the turn 5-bet to be more like a turn 3-bet. He can hope that you have AQ, KK, or you got out of line pre-flop w/ 22. He can decide that there's no way you would just bet out w/ QQ since he wouldn't. But most importantly, there's 2750 in the pot and he has a set.

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 02:29 PM
Fair enough.

-Diplomat

elysium
02-20-2004, 03:58 PM
hi diplomat
what i think might be happening is that you're trying to play X number of hands per session where X is a lot. this is because you have a very busy schedule. if you played correctly, you'd sit there for hours never getting even close to X. what you're telling me is that you're KJ and KQ from that position too. you have a busy schedule, and it feels like you're saving time.

instead of trying to figure out how you can make these type hands work, why not do this. the conversations in the poker room are usually CB quality. some truckers and hobbiest love talking on the CB. shaybay....i'm doing my hillbilly voice. 'tha shaybay boy shaved mi li unce. ef i dint fyn tha piggli wiggli i'd jus bout di. thay wuz col tu.'

card-room conversation almost seems designed to break down ones steadfast resolve to remain patient. it's good to be sociable, but conversations about the benefits of spider moss and corn oil, or some new designer fashion drug can send us on tilt. you bet just to shut them up and draw their attention to something else. while the hand is in play you have quiet, but it picks back up again. so try blocking it out with headphones.

Zeno
02-20-2004, 04:01 PM
I disagree.

But this is speculation on my part. Given that Diplomats opponent is suppose to be an accomplished No-limit player he should be excellent at card reading. Therefore, if he knows diplomats playing style well enough he should know conclusively on the turn that he is beat and playing to a One Outer. He missed – easy fold. If he can’t pin Diplomat on a specific hand (for whatever reasons – for example, Diplomat is especially tricky etc) then a call is ‘necessary’.

His play of the Four’s perflop reveal his no-limit thinking tendencies and his lack of adjustment to limit play and perhaps also to his lack of judgment in the various betting styles and patterns of limit players – a common flaw seen in many no-limit players. IMO.

-Zeno

Diplomat
02-20-2004, 04:14 PM
I have no comment. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Diplomat

Zeno
02-20-2004, 05:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...about the benefits of spider moss...

[/ QUOTE ]

hi elysium,

Spider moss is sometimes also called moss spider or is it confused with a moss spider that lives in spider moss? Anyway, I have copied and pasted below an important document about 'spider moss' or a moss spider from the Dept. of Interior. I would ask, elysium, that you read every word of this rather long document. Read every word very, very carefully. Then clear up this confusion if you can. Thank You.

-Zeno


Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Spruce-Fir Moss Spider Determined To Be Endangered
[Federal Register: February 6, 1995]

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Fish and Wildlife Service

50 CFR Part 17

RIN 1018-AC25

Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Spruce-Fir Moss
Spider Determined To Be Endangered

AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.

ACTION: Final rule.

SUMMARY: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) determines the
spruce-fir moss spider (Microhexura montivaga) to be an endangered
species under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended (Act).
This spider is currently known from four mostly small populations
located in western North Carolina and eastern Tennessee. The spider's
damp, high-elevation forest habitat is deteriorating rapidly due
primarily to exotic insects and possibly past land use history, air
pollution, and other factors not yet fully understood. The species'
current low numbers also increase its vulnerability to harm from other
threats. This final rule extends Federal protection under the Act to
the spruce-fir moss spider.

EFFECTIVE DATE: March 8, 1995.

ADDRESSES: The complete file for this rule is available for inspection,
by appointment, during normal business hours at the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service Field Office, 330 Ridgefield Court, Asheville, North
Carolina.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mr. John Fridell at the above address
(704/665-1195, Ext. 225).

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background

The spruce-fir moss spider was originally described by Crosby and
Bishop (1925) based on collections made from a mountain peak in western
North Carolina in 1923 (Coyle 1981). Only a few specimens were taken,
and little was known about the species until its rediscovery
approximately 50 years later by Dr. Frederick Coyle (Western Carolina
University, Cullowhee, North Carolina) and Dr. William Shear (HampdenSydney
College, Hampden-Sydney, Virginia) (Coyle 1981). Microhexura
montivaga is one of only two species belonging to the genus Microhexura
in the family Dipluridae (Coyle 1981; Harp 1991, 1992). The other
species in the genus, M. idahoana, occurs only in the Pacific Northwest
(Coyle 1981). Diplurids belong in the primitive suborder Mygalomorphae,
which are often popularly referred to as ``tarantulas'' (Harp 1991,
1992). The genus Microhexura is the northernmost representative of the
family Dipluridae and is also one of the smallest of the mygalomorph
spiders, with adults measuring only 2.5 to 3.8 millimeters (0.10 to
0.15 inch) (Coyle 1981). Coloration of M. montivaga ranges from light
brown to a darker reddish brown, and there are no markings on the
abdomen (Harp 1992). The carapace is generally yellowish brown (Harp
1992). The most reliable field identification characteristics for the
spruce-fir moss spider are chelicerae that project forward well beyond
the anterior edge of the carapace (Harp 1992; Coyle, personal
communication 1994), a pair of very long posterior spinnerets, and the
presence of a second pair of book lungs, which appear as light patches
posterior to the genital furrow (Harp 1992).
The typical habitat of the spruce-fir moss spider is found in damp
but well-drained moss (and liverwort) mats growing on rocks or
boulders, in well-shaded situations in the mature, high-elevation
Fraser fir (Abies fraseri) and red spruce (Picea rubens) forests (Coyle
1981, Harp 1992). The forest stands at the sites where the species has
been observed are composed primarily of Fraser fir with only scattered
spruce being present. The moss mats found to contain the spider have
all been found under fir trees (Harp, personal communication, 1994;
Coyle, personal communication, 1994). The moss mats cannot be too dry
(the species is very sensitive to desiccation) or too wet (large drops
of water can also pose a threat to the spider) (Harp 1992). The spider
constructs its tube-shaped webs in the interface between the moss mat
and rock surface (Coyle 1981, Harp 1992), though occasionally the web
extends into the interior of the moss mat (Harp 1992). The tubes are
thin-walled and typically broad and flatten with short side branches
(Coyle 1981, Harp 1992). There is no record of prey having been found
in the webs of the spruce-fir moss spider nor has the species been
observed taking prey in the wild, but the abundant springtails
(collembolans) in the moss mats provide the most likely
[[Page 6969]] source of food for the spider (Coyle 1981, Harp 1992).
Males of the species mature during September and October, and
females are known to lay eggs in June. The egg sac is thin-walled and
nearly transparent, and it may contain seven to nine eggs. The female
remains with the egg sac and, if disturbed, will carry the egg sac with
her fangs. Spiderlings emerge in September (Coyle 1981). The means of
dispersal of the spiderlings from the parental moss mat is not known.
``Ballooning,'' a process by which the spiders use a sheet of silk
played out into the wind to carry them into the air, has been suggested
as a possible means of long-range dispersal (Harp 1992), but the
species' high sensitivity to desiccation would likely preclude this
dispersal method (Harp, personal communication, 1994). The life span of
the species is also unknown, but Coyle (1981) estimated that it may
take 3 years for the species to reach maturity.

Previous Federal Activity

From 1989 through 1992, status surveys were conducted for the
spruce-fir moss spider (Harp 1991, 1992). Based on the results of these
surveys, the spider is presently known to exist at only four
locations--three sites in North Carolina and one in Tennessee. Of the
four remaining populations, only one appears to be relatively stable.
This population is located along the Avery/Caldwell County line in
North Carolina. The other two populations in North Carolina are located
in Swain County. Both of the Swain County populations are extremely
small with only one spruce-fir moss spider having been found at each of
these two sites in recent years (Harp 1991, 1992). The forests at the
two Swain County sites are rapidly declining. The Tennessee population
is located in Sevier County. This population was considered healthy in
1989 but is currently believed to be declining in numbers and is
endangered by habitat loss/alteration (Harp 1992). The high-elevation
spruce-fir forests throughout much of the species' historic range are
being decimated by the balsam wooly adelgid (Adelges piceae)--an exotic
insect pest--and possibly by air pollution (acid precipitation) and
other factors not yet fully understood. The death and thinning of the
forest canopy results in locally drastic changes in microclimate
including increased temperatures and decreased moisture leading to
desiccation of the moss mats on which the spruce-fir moss spider, and
possibly its prey base, depend for survival.
In absence of status information, the spruce-fir moss spider was
not included in the Service's notice of review for animal candidates
that was published in the Federal Register of November 21, 1991 (56 FR
58804). However, subsequent surveys of both historic and potential
habitat of the species indicate that the spruce-fir moss spider is
undergoing a rapid decline in distribution. Presently only one
relatively stable population is known to survive and, while currently
considered to be healthy, this population is threatened by the same
factors that are believed to have resulted in the extirpation and/or
decline of the species elsewhere within its historic range.
Accordingly, on August 30, 1993, the Service approved the spruce-fir
moss spider as a category 1 candidate. Category 1 represents those
species for which the Service has enough substantial information on
biological vulnerability and threats to support proposals to list them
as endangered or threatened species.
The Service has met and been in contact with various Federal and
State agency personnel and private individuals knowledgeable about the
species concerning the species' status and the need for the protection
provided by the Act. On December 31, 1992, the Service notified
appropriate Federal, State, and local government agencies, landowners,
and individuals knowledgeable about this or similar species, in
writing, that a status review was being conducted and that the species
might be proposed for Federal listing. A total of 10 written comments
were received. The National Park Service, the North Carolina Division
of Parks and Recreation, and three private individuals (including the
owner of the site containing the Avery/Caldwell County, North Carolina,
population) expressed strong support for the potential listing of the
spruce-fir moss spider as an endangered species. The U.S. Soil
Conservation Service, Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, Tennessee
Department of Environment and Conservation, Tennessee Valley Authority,
and the North Carolina Department of Agriculture stated that they had
no new or additional information on the species or threats to its
continued existence. No negative comments were received.
On January 27, 1994, the Service published in the Federal Register
(59 FR 3825) a proposal to list the spruce-fir moss spider as an
endangered species. That proposal provided information on the species'
biology, status, and threats to its continued existence.

Summary of Comments and Recommendations

In the January 27, 1994, spruce-fir moss spider proposed rule and
associated notifications, all interested parties were requested to
submit factual reports or information that might contribute to
development of a final rule. Appropriate Federal and State agencies,
county governments, scientific organizations, individuals knowledgeable
about the species or its habitat, and other interested parties were
contacted and requested to comment. A legal notice, which invited
general public comment, was published in the following newspapers: the
``Avery Journal,'' Newland, North Carolina, February 10, 1994; the
``Lenoir News-Topic,'' Lenoir, North Carolina, February 10, 1994; the
``Watauga Democrat,'' Boone, North Carolina, February 16, 1994; the
``Smoky Mountains Times,'' Bryson City, North Carolina, February 10,
1994; and the ``Mountain Press,'' Sevierville, Tennessee, February 11,
1994.
All written comments received during the comment period are covered
in the following discussion.
Ten written responses to the proposed rule were received. The
National Park Service, North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission,
North Carolina Division of Parks and Recreation, and three private
individuals expressed strong support for the listing of the spruce-fir
moss spider as endangered. One of these responses received from a
private individual identified errors in the proposed rule concerning
the size range of spruce-fir moss spider, and the likely age at which
sexual maturity is reached by the species. Another of these respondents
provided additional information concerning the status of the species.
The Service has incorporated these corrections and additional
information into this final rule.
Two responses were received from the Tennessee Valley Authority
(TVA) and one from the U.S. Soil Conservation Service (SCS) that
expressed neither support nor opposition to the listing. A response
from the TVA, Regional Natural Heritage Project, and the response from
the SCS stated they had no additional information concerning the
spruce-fir moss spider. A response received from the TVA Land
Management, while stating that they did not oppose listing of the
spider, expressed concern about the lack of peer reviewed information
presented in the proposed rule (concerning the spruce-fir moss spider
and role of atmospheric pollution as factor in decline of its habitat),
stating that the proposal relied [[Page 6970]] mainly on two
unpublished, unreviewed project reports by Harp (1991, 1992). They also
stated that they felt that the habitat of the spruce-fir moss spider
described in the proposed rule was too general; identified errors in
the citation of the Krahl-Urban et al. (1988) document cited in the
``Summary of Factors Affecting the Species,'' factor A, of the proposed
rule; and provided additional information concerning the decline of the
spruce-fir forest in the Southeast.
In enacting the Endangered Species Act, Congress required the
Service to list species as endangered or threatened based on the best
scientific and commercial information available. The Service has
carefully assessed the best available information in determining to
propose and list the spruce-fir moss spider as endangered. This
included a review of literature, State and Federal data bases, and
museum records; intensive surveys of historic and potential habitat;
correspondence with other Federal, State, and private agencies,
companies, and individuals knowledgeable about the species; and all
relevant comments received throughout the review process. Although all
of these information sources have been considered, most of the data for
the species is contained in Coyle (1981), and in the status survey
reports by Harp (1991 and 1992). The Service considers both of these
investigators as highly reliable sources. The only other paper that
provides any detail concerning the species, of which the Service is
aware, that was not referenced in the proposed rule is a paper on the
mating behavior of the spruce-fir moss spider (Coyle 1985).
Despite the fact that the status survey reports by Harp are not
published documents, the information on the spider contained in these
reports has been reviewed by numerous individuals. As part of the
listing process for this species, the Service notified affected
Federal, State, and local government agencies, landowners, and
individuals knowledgeable about this or similar species and requested
their review of the findings presented in Harp's status survey reports
and any additional information that they may have on the species, its
status, or threats to its continued existence. As stated above, no
negative comments in response to the notification of status review were
received and all respondents expressed support of the information
presented in the notification, support of Federal listing of the
species, and/or stated that they had no additional information on the
species. In addition, the proposed rule to list the spruce-fir moss
spider was widely distributed and reviewed. The majority of the
responses support the findings presented in the proposed rule. No
factual or substantive information was received that indicates that the
information concerning the species, its habitat, its biology, its past
and present distribution, and decline and status of its populations and
threats as presented in the proposed rule is incorrect, with the
exception of those items identified above (size, age at sexual
maturity, and the Krahl-Urban et al. (1988) document citation).
Accordingly, the Service believes that sufficient information is
currently available and has been presented that clearly shows that the
species has undergone a drastic decline throughout its range, that the
species' remaining habitat is significantly threatened, and that the
species is in danger of extinction.
The Service does concur that a detailed characterization of the
spruce-fir moss spider's habitat, threats to its habitat, and
additional information concerning the species biology will be necessary
in order to properly manage and implement protection and recovery
measures. These, as well as other research needs and activities
necessary to ensure the long-term survival of the species, will be
addressed by the Service in the development and implementation of a
recovery plan for the spruce-fir moss spider and through other means
(see ``Available Conservation Measures'' below). The Service has
corrected the reference to the Krahl-Urban et al. (1988) document,
changed the citation to the relevant chapter author (R. I. Bruck), and
incorporated additional information concerning the sites where the
species has been found and factors believed to be contributing to the
decline of the spruce-fir forest ecosystem in the Southeast into this
final rule, as requested by the TVA. The Service has also added
additional citations to this final rule to support statements
concerning possible factors contributing to the decline of spruce-fir
forests associated with populations of the spruce-fir moss spider.
One comment opposing the proposal to list the spruce-fir moss
spider was received. This individual stated that ``The scientific
community, and the Service in particular, need to recognize that
extinction has always been a continuing process and will continue to be
so.'' The Service agrees that extinction can be a natural process.
Extinction occurs naturally as species respond by evolving into new
species, or are unable to respond (become extinct) to a changing
environment. However, virtually all of the historical extinctions that
have been documented are attributable either directly or indirectly to
human induced environmental changes (Greenway 1967; Frankel and Soule
1981; Soule 1983), changes that are too new (changes that most species
have not evolved the ability to cope with; i.e., exotic pests,
pollutants, etc.), too rapid, and too destructive to allow the species
the chance to respond. A species being eliminated by processes such as
the human related introductions of exotic pests, applications of
poisonous chemicals, forest clearing, etc., is far different than a
species being unable to adapt to a naturally changing environment.
Further, the Act requires the Service to list species that are in
danger of going extinct without regard as to what factor may be
inducing extinction.
This same respondent also inquired whether there is documentation
that pollution is a contributing factor to the loss of forest cover.
The Service recognizes that the possible role of atmospheric pollution
in the decline of the high elevation spruce in spruce-fir forest
ecosystem in the southern Appalachians is a controversial and highly
complex topic. However, several studies have been conducted and are
currently ongoing to address this issue and, while opinions vary and
much more research is needed, there is field and laboratory data
available that indicates that atmospheric pollution in combination with
other stress factors has played a role in the deterioration of the
health of high elevation red spruce in the southern Appalachians
(Johnson et al., 1992).

Summary of Factors Affecting the Species

After a thorough review and consideration of all information
available, the Service has determined that the spruce-fir moss spider
should be classified as an endangered species. Procedures found at
section 4(a)(1) of the Act and regulations implementing the listing
provisions of the Act (50 CFR part 424) were followed. A species may be
determined to be an endangered or threatened species due to one or more
of the five factors described in section 4(a)(1). These factors and
their application to the spruce-fir moss spider are as follows:
A. The present or threatened destruction, modification, or
curtailment of its habitat or range. The spruce-fir moss spider is
known to be endemic only to high-elevation spruce-fir forests of
western North Carolina and eastern Tennessee. Historically, the
[[Page 6971]] species has been reported from four sites in North
Carolina and one in Tennessee. In North Carolina the species has been
recorded from two sites in Swain County, one in Yancey County, and one
in Avery/Caldwell Counties (Coyle 1981, Harp 1992). In Tennessee, the
species is known from only one site in Sevier County (Coyle 1981).
During 1989 and through 1992, both historic and potential habitat
of the species was surveyed (Harp 1991, 1992). No new populations of
the spruce-fir moss spider were discovered and of the five previously
recorded populations, only one--the Avery and Caldwell County, North
Carolina, population--appears to be stable (Harp 1992).
The Yancey County, North Carolina, population appears to have been
extirpated, and only one individual could be found at each of the two
sites in Swain County, North Carolina (Harp 1992). The population in
Sevier County, Tennessee, was surveyed in 1989 and was considered to be
relatively healthy at that time (Harp 1991). However, revisits to this
site in 1992 found that the population level is declining, apparently
in conjunction with a rapid decline of Fraser fir occurring at the site
and associated desiccation of moss-mat habitat (Harp 1992). Recent
monitoring of this population indicates that it will likely be
extirpated within the next 1 to 2 years (Harp, personal communication
1994).
The spruce-fir moss spider is very sensitive to desiccation and
requires situations of high and constant humidity (Coyle 1981; Harp
1991, 1992). Loss of forest canopy (primarily the Fraser fir, the
dominant canopy species in the forest stands where the spider has been
found) leading to increased light and decreased moisture on the forest
floor (resulting in desiccation of the moss mats) appears to be the
major cause for the loss and decline of the spruce-fir moss spider at
all four of these sites and the major threat to the species' continued
existence. In a 1991 letter to Mr. Keith Langdon (National Park
Service, Great Smoky Mountains National Park), Dr. Frederick Coyle
(Western Carolina University) indicated that the spruce-fir moss spider
was common at one of the sites in Swain County, North Carolina, as late
as 1983 but was extremely rare by 1988. In his letter to Mr. Langdon,
Dr. Coyle stated that many of the moss mats at this site had become dry
and loose, which he suspected was due largely to deterioration of the
forest canopy at the site.
Fraser fir at all four of these sites from which the spider has
been recorded (the Swain and Yancey County sites in North Carolina and
the Sevier County, Tennessee, site) have suffered extensive mortality,
believed to be primarily due to infestation by the balsam wooly adelgid
(J. Harp, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, personal communication, 1993),
a non-native insect pest believed to have been introduced into the
United States, around 1900, from Europe (Kotinsky 1916; Eagar 1984).
The adelgid was first detected in North Carolina on Mount Mitchell in
1957 (Speers 1958), though it was likely established at that site as
early as 1940, and from Mount Mitchell it spread to the Fraser fir
communities throughout the southern Appalachians (Eagar 1984). Most
mature Fraser fir are easily killed by the adelgid (Amman and Speers
1965) with death occurring within 2 to 7 years of the initial
infestation (Eagar 1984).
While the loss of the Fraser fir appears to be the most significant
threat to the remaining spruce-fir moss spider populations, the
combined effects of several other factors are also believed to be
stressing and contributing to the decline of the high elevation sprucefir
forest stands. Bruck (1988) estimated that trees 45 through 85
years of age at the summit of Mount Mitchell, (the site in Yancey
County, North Carolina, where the species is now believed to be
extirpated) showed an average defoliation of 75 to 90 percent and that
all the trees exhibited some form of growth reduction. He hypothesized
that atmospheric pollution was a possible factor in the decline.
Regional scale air pollution in combination with other stress factors
is believed to have played a significant role in the deterioration of
the health of high elevation red spruce in the east (Johnson et al.
1992). Site deterioration due to past land use history (past logging
and burning practices in southern Appalachians) and winter injury have
also been identified as possible contributing factors (Peart et al.
1992). The death and thinning of the canopy trees within these stands
also cause the remaining trees to be more susceptible to wind and other
storm damage, which has become a major concern at the Sevier County,
Tennessee, site (J. Harp, personal communication 1992).
The spruce-fir forest at the site harboring the Avery/Caldwell
County, North Carolina, population of the spruce-fir moss spider has
not experienced the degree of decline that has occurred (and is
occurring) at the other sites known to support (or to have supported)
populations of the spider. However, the same factors that are believed
to have resulted in the decline of the spruce-fir forest and the
associated loss of suitable moss-mat habitat at these other sites
threaten this population and its habitat at this site as well.
B. Overutilization for commercial, recreational, scientific, or
educational purposes. The spruce-fir moss spider is not currently known
to be commercially valuable; however, because of its extreme rarity and
uniqueness, it is conceivable that it could be sought by collectors. It
is one of only two members of the genus Microhexura, it is the only
representative of the primitive family Dipluridae in eastern North
America and is one of the smallest of the world's ``tarantulas.'' While
collecting or other intentional take is not presently identified as a
factor contributing to the species' decline, the low numbers, slow
reproductive rate, and extremely restricted range of the spruce-fir
moss spider make it unlikely that the species could withstand even
moderate collecting pressure.
C. Disease or predation. It is presently unknown whether disease or
predation have played a role in the decline of the spruce-fir moss
spider. Further research is needed in this area. While predation is not
thought to be a significant threat to a healthy population of the
spruce-fir moss spider, it could limit the recovery of the species or
contribute to the local extirpation of populations already depleted by
other factors. Possible predators of the spruce-fir moss spider include
pseudoscorpions, centipedes, and other spiders (Harp 1992).
D. The inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms. Neither the
State of North Carolina nor the State of Tennessee include arachnids on
their lists of endangered and threatened species; therefore, the
species is unprotected in both States. Federal listing will provide
protection for the spruce-fir moss spider throughout its range by
requiring Federal permits to take the species and by requiring Federal
agencies to consult with the Service when activities they fund,
authorize, or carry out may affect the species.
E. Other natural or manmade factors affecting its continued
existence. Only one of the four remaining populations of this species
appears stable. The other three surviving populations are extremely
small and all four populations are geographically isolated from one
another. Therefore, the long-term genetic viability of these
populations is in doubt. Also, the restricted range of each of the
surviving populations makes them extremely vulnerable to extirpation
from a single event or activity, such as a severe storm,
[[Page 6972]] fire, land-clearing or timbering operation, pesticide/
herbicide application, etc. Because they are isolated from one another
natural repopulation of an extirpated population would be unlikely
without human intervention.
The Service has carefully assessed the best scientific and
commercial information available regarding the past, present, and
future threats faced by this species in determining to make this rule
final. The species has been greatly reduced in numbers throughout the
majority of its historic range and presently is known to occur at only
four locations. At two of these locations, only lone individuals--one
at each location--have been observed in recent years; at a third
location the species has undergone a rapid decline in numbers and is
endangered by further habitat degradation/alteration. Only one of the
remaining populations appears to be stable at this time, and it is
threatened by many of the same factors that are believed to have
resulted in the extirpation or decline of the other historically known
populations. Due to the species' history of population loss and decline
and the extreme vulnerability of the surviving populations, threatened
status does not appear appropriate for this species. Critical habitat
is not being proposed for this species at this time for the reasons
discussed below.

Critical Habitat

Section 4(a)(3) of the Act requires that, to the maximum extent
prudent and determinable, the Secretary designates critical habitat at
the time the species is determined to be endangered or threatened. The
Service's regulations (50 CFR 424.12(a)(1)) state that designation of
critical habitat is not prudent when one or both of the following
situations exist: (1) The species is threatened by taking or other
activity and the identification of critical habitat can be expected to
increase the degree of threat to the species or (2) such designation of
critical habitat would not be beneficial to the species. The Service
finds that designation of critical habitat is not prudent for this
species. Such a determination would result in no known benefit to the
spruce-fir moss spider, and designation of critical habitat could
further threaten the species.
Section 7 of the Act requires that Federal agencies insure that
their actions are not likely to jeopardize the continued existence of
listed species, or result in the destruction or adverse modification of
critical habitat. (See ``Available Conservation Measures'' section for
a further discussion of section 7.) As part of the development of this
rule, Federal and State agencies were notified of the spruce-fir moss
spiders' general distribution, and they were requested to provide data
on proposed Federal actions that might adversely affect the species. No
specific projects were identified. Should any future projects be
proposed in areas inhabited by the spruce-fir moss spider, the involved
Federal agency will already have the general distribution data needed
to determine if the species may be impacted by their action. If needed,
more specific distribution information would be provided.
Three of the four surviving populations of the spruce-fir moss
spider are considered to be extremely small, and suitable habitat at
each of the four sites still supporting the species is very limited.
Thus, any Federal action with the potential to result in significant
adverse modification or destruction of the species' habitat would also
likely jeopardize its continued existence, thereby triggering both the
destruction or adverse modification of critical habitat standard and
the jeopardy standard. Therefore, no additional protection for the
spruce-fir moss spider would accrue from critical habitat designation
that would not also accrue from listing the species. Consequently, when
listed, habitat protection for the spruce-fir moss spider will be
accomplished through the section 7 jeopardy standard and section 9
prohibitions against take.
In addition, the spruce-fir moss spider is very rare and unique,
and taking for scientific purposes and private collection could pose a
threat if specific site information were released. The publication of
critical habitat maps in the Federal Register, local newspapers, and
other publicity accompanying critical habitat designation could
increase the collection threat. The locations of populations of these
species have consequently been described only in general terms in this
proposed rule. Any existing precise locality data would be available to
appropriate Federal, State, and local government agencies from the
Service office described in the ADDRESSES section; from the Service's
Raleigh Field Office, P.O. Box 33726, Raleigh, North Carolina 27636-
3726; the Service's Cookeville Field Office, 446 Neal Street,
Cookeville, Tennessee 38501; and from the North Carolina Wildlife
Resources Agency, North Carolina Natural Heritage Program, Tennessee
Wildlife Resources Agency, and Tennessee Department of Conservation.

Available Conservation Measures

Conservation measures provided to species listed as endangered or
threatened under the Act include recognition, recovery actions,
requirements for Federal protection, and prohibitions against certain
practices. Recognition through listing encourages and results in
conservation actions by Federal, State, and private agencies, groups,
and individuals. The Act provides for possible land acquisition and
cooperation with the States and requires that recovery actions be
carried out for all listed species. The protection required of Federal
agencies and the prohibitions against taking and harm are discussed, in
part, below.
Section 7(a) of the Act requires Federal agencies to evaluate their
actions with respect to any species that is proposed or listed as
endangered or threatened and with respect to its critical habitat if
any is being designated. Regulations implementing this interagency
cooperation provision of the Act are codified at 50 CFR part 402.
Section 7(a)(2) requires Federal agencies to ensure that activities
they authorize, fund, or carry out are not likely to jeopardize the
continued existence of a listed species or to destroy or adversely
modify its critical habitat. If a Federal action may affect a listed
species or its critical habitat, the responsible Federal agency must
enter into formal consultation with the Service. The Service has
notified Federal agencies that may have programs that affect the
species. Federal activities that occur and impact the species include,
but are not limited to, the carrying out or issuance of permits for
construction, recreation or development actions that could result in
the loss or thinning of the high-elevation forest canopy, and pesticide
or herbicide applications for the control of noxious insects or weeds.
It has been the experience of the Service, however, that nearly all
section 7 consultations can be resolved so that the species is
protected and the project objectives met.
Section 9 of the Act and implementing regulations found at 50 CFR
17.21 set forth a series of general prohibitions and exceptions that
apply to all endangered wildlife. These prohibitions, in part, make it
illegal for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States
to take (includes harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap,
or collect; or to attempt any of these), import or export, ship in
interstate commerce in the course of a commercial activity, or sell or
offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any listed species. It
also is [[Page 6973]] illegal to possess, sell, deliver, carry,
transport, or ship any such wildlife that has been taken illegally.
Certain exceptions apply to agents of the Service and State
conservation agencies.
Permits may be issued to carry out otherwise prohibited activities
involving endangered wildlife species under certain circumstances.
Regulations governing permits are at 50 CFR 17.22 and 17.23. Such
permits are available for scientific purposes, to enhance the
propagation or survival of the species, and/or for incidental take in
connection with otherwise lawful activities.
It is the policy of the Service, published in the Federal Register
on July 1, 1994 (59 FR 34272), to identify to the maximum extent
practicable at the time of listing those activities that would
constitute a violation of Section 9 of the Act. The intent of this
policy is to increase public awareness of the listing on proposed and
on-going activities within a species' range. Activities that could
potentially result in ``take'' of the spruce-fir moss spider include,
but are not limited to, unauthorized collecting or handling of the
spider, unauthorized pesticide applications within the occupied habitat
of the spider, or intentional or unauthorized destruction of the
species' habitat (e.g., burning or forest clearing within the occupied
range of the species; trampling or other disturbance of the moss mats
within which the species occurs, etc.).
Questions regarding whether specific activities will constitute a
violation of section 9 should be directed to the Field Supervisor of
the Service's Asheville Office (see ADDRESSES section). Requests for
copies of the regulations regarding listed wildlife and inquiries about
prohibitions and permits should be addressed to the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service, Southeast Regional Office, Ecological Services,
Division of Endangered Species, 1875 Century Boulevard, Atlanta,
Georgia 30345-3301 (Telephone 404/679-7099; Facsimile 404/679-7081).

National Environmental Policy Act

The Fish and Wildlife Service has determined that Environmental
Assessments and Environmental Impact Statements, as defined under the
authority of the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, need not be
prepared in connection with regulations adopted pursuant to section
4(a) of the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended. A notice
outlining the Service's reasons for this determination was published in
the Federal Register on October 25, 1983 (48 FR 49244).

References Cited

Amman, G. D. and C. F. Speers. 1965. Balsam wooly aphid in the
southern Appalachians. Journ. For. 63:18-20.
Bruck, R. I. 1988. Research site: Mount Mitchell (southern
Appalachians). Decline of the red spruce and Fraser fir. IN: B.
Krahl-Urban, H. E. Papke, K. Peters, and C. Shimanski (eds.). Forest
Decline. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and German Ministry of
Research and Technology. 137 pp.
Coyle, F. A. 1981. The mygalomorph genus Microhexura (Araneae,
Dipluridae). Bull. Amer. Mus. Nat. Hist. 170:64-75.
Coyle, F. A., 1985. Observations on the mating behavior of the tiny
mygalomorph spider, Microhexura montivaga Crosby & Bishop (Araneae,
Dipluridae). Bull. Brit. Arach. Soc. 6(8):328-330.
Crosby, C. R., and S. C. Bishop. 1925. Two new spiders from the Blue
Ridge Mountains of North Carolina (Araneina). Ent. News. 36:142-146,
Figs. 1 and 2.
Eagar, C. 1984. Review of the biology and ecology of the balsam
woolly aphid in southern Appalachian spruce-fir forests. IN: P. S.
White (ed.), The southern Appalachian spruce-fir ecosystem: its
biology and threats. Research/Resources Management Report SER-71.
U.S. Dept. of Interior, National Park Service.
Frankel, O. H., and M. E. Soule. 1981 Conservation and evolution.
Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, England.
Greenway, J. C., Jr. 1967. Extinction and vanishing birds of the
world. Dover Publications, New York.
Harp, J. M. 1991. Status of the spruce-fir moss spider, Microhexura
montivaga Crosby and Bishop, in the Great Smoky Mountains National
Park. Unpubl. report to the National Park Service, U.S. Department
of the Interior. 12 pp. plus appendix.
Harp, J. M. 1992. A status survey of the spruce-fir moss spider,
Microhexura montivaga Crosby and Bishop (Araneae, Dipluridae).
Unpubl. report to the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission,
Nongame and Endangered Wildlife Program, and the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service, Asheville, North Carolina. 30 pp.
Johnson, A. H., S. B. McLaughlin, M. B. Adams, E. R. Cook, D. H.
DeHayes, C. Eagar, I. J. Fernandez, D. W. Johnson, R. J. Kohut, V.
A. Mohnen, N. S. Nicholas, D. R. Peart, G. A. Shier, and P. S.
White. 1992. Synthesis and conclusions from epidemiological and
mechanistic studies of red spruce decline. IN: C. Eagar and M. B.
Adams (eds.) Ecology and decline of red spruce in the eastern United
States. Springer-Verlag, New York.
Kotinsky, J. 1916. The European fir trunk louse, Chermes (Dreyfusia)
piceae (Ratz.). Ent. Proc. Soc. Washington 18:14-16.
Peart, D. R., N. S. Nicholas, S. M. Zedaker, M. Miller-Weeks, and T.
G. Siccama. 1992. Condition and recent trends in high-elevation red
spruce populations. IN: C. Eagar and M. B. Adams (eds.) Ecology and
decline of red spruce in the eastern United States. Springer-Verlag,
New York.
Speers, C. F. 1958. The balsam woolly aphid infestation on cambial
activity in Abies grandis. Amer. Jour. Bot. 54:1215-1223.

Author

The primary author of this proposed rule is John A. Fridell, U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service, Asheville Field Office, 330 Ridgefield
Court, Asheville, North Carolina 28806 (704/665-1195, Ext. 225).

List of Subjects in 50 CFR Part 17

Endangered and threatened species, Exports, Imports, Reporting and
recordkeeping requirements, and Transportation.

Regulation Promulgation

Accordingly, part 17, subchapter B of chapter I, title 50 of the
Code of Federal Regulations, is amended as set forth below:

PART 17--[AMENDED]


The authority citation for part 17 continues to read as follows:


Authority: 16 U.S.C. 1361-1407; 16 U.S.C. 1531-1544; 16 U.S.C.
4201-4245; Pub. L. 99-625, 100 Stat. 3500; unless otherwise noted.

2. Section 17.11(h) is amended by adding the following, in
alphabetical order under ARACHNIDS, to the List of Endangered and
Threatened Wildlife, to read as follows:

Sec. 17.11 Endangered and threatened wildlife.


* * * *
(h) * * * <radical>



[[Page 6974]]

Species Vertebrate
----------------------------------------------------------- population
where Critical Special
Historic range endangered Status When listed habitat rules
Common name Scientific name or
threatened

Arachnids


* * * * * *

Spider, spruce-fir moss..... Microhexura montivaga....... U.S.A. (NC and TN).......... NA E 576 NA NA


* * * * * *


Dated: December 12, 1994.
Mollie H. Beattie,
Director, Fish and Wildlife Service.
[FR Doc. 95-2836 Filed 2-3-95; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4310-55-P

bisonbison
02-20-2004, 06:58 PM
Brilliant.

Indian Ocean
02-20-2004, 07:25 PM
He has QQ or 99 for sure!!!

Indian Ocean
02-20-2004, 07:26 PM