ok value betting fans what do you do here?

[mike l.]

party 10-20 6 handed i have 6h6s on button everyone limps i limp, sb calls, bb raises, all call. 6 of us for 6 bbs.

the flop is 8c7c6d. sb checks, bb bets, utg calls, cutoff raises, i 3 bet, sb folds, all call.

the turn is Ah. bb bets, all call, i raise, all call.

the river is 2c. checked to me. what's my play, check or bet? and what if i bet and am checkraised?

[SoBeDude]

I vote for bet the river, call the raise.

[Manzanita]

mike,

I can't see 4 opponents calling 3 bets on the flop and 2 bets on the turn without someone having the flush draw (most likely the CO). And if you get check-raised on the end you pretty much have to call given the size of the pot. Finally, if you do have the best hand, my guess is only the BB will pay you off. Therefore, I would just check in this situation.

-- Manzanita

[andyfox]

I can't speak for internet poker, or for six-handed games, but in my game, if I got the last bet in on the flop, and the last bet in on the turn, and then the 3rd flush card came on the river when there were 2 on the flop, I'd bet my set if they all checked to me 100% of the time. And I'm not laying down to a check-raise for one more bet when it's a 68-big bet pot.

[Ulysses]

[astroglide]

bet and call a raise

[Clarkmeister]

[SLEEPER]

I would never bet this river.... all you are doing is asking for problems.... yeah you flopped a set, and you want to get paid off nicely, but there is a straight, flush and 3 overcards that could have been made into a set as well... I think the BB either has a high pocket pair or AK suited ( most likely in clubs ). The cutoff could either have a flush draw as well, or maybe he flopped the straight.... 9/10 suited is played all the time in these kind of games..... I am willing to bet that someone there is waiting for you to pump it again on the river.... Check and prey your'e the best. At most you will earn an extra big bet getting called by the AK in the BB.

No value here!

[Ulysses]

While possible, the chances that AcKc, 77, 88, AA, or 9T are out there are not very high.

And if he has the best hand, it wouldn't be surprising to see him get paid off in two or three spots.

[SLEEPER]

What are they calling with then? KK, QQ, JJ, 10's 99's ( I can see 99 being played out of the BB this way ). I don't see anyone having a lesser hand calling at this point.... If they don't have the clubs, straght or set, what do they think you have? For them to call, they must either be getting great odds or they think you have nothing.... Therefore, there is no value!

[SLEEPER]

If you ask me there are only two hands that might pay off your bet. 99 and A8 suited with A of clubs.

[DiamondDave]

I can think of lots of people who would call with any ace, even if the bettor is mike i.

I'd be really surprised if everyone folded to a river bet.

[SLEEPER]

What you are telling me is that a player sitting at a 10-20 table is willing to play a weak ace, maybe AJ/AQ for a raise preflop, three bets on the flop, then a raise on the turn ( granted they have top pair ) and then make a call on the river when there is a 3 flush/straight on the board and the guy betting all the way is the bettor? That is one hell of a weak player, and he should move back to 1/2. Even if there are players that do that, I still would think given all the aggresiveness that it is most likely you are beat. So there can't be positive expectation....

Otherwise, get me in that game, I could use a new car /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[elysium]

hi mike
i don't necessarily approve of what you have to do to win here, but if you think that the EP will check-raise, then bet, but i don't consider it a value bet. you will need the small flush trapped in between to be in the hands of an opponent who will let it go. usually if there are a couple of weak-tights and a solid or so, the rest being calling stations, you have the odds. if the field is mostly calling stations, then don't bet. the EP will need to know your playing style and be capable of check-raising for value with a slightly weaker hand seeing the opportunity.

had the field narrowed more, you could more easily ascertain whether or not to bet. this is an interesting scenario because somehow the large field works more to your advantage, and makes getting check-raised correct.

yeah mike, you really need to focus on the EP. if you don't think that he will check-raise, or if he wouldn't check-raise without at least the K high, then save your bet. you don't want a free-showdown, but if you think your bet will only get called, or of course check-raised later than EP+1, then check it down.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
it wouldn't be surprising to see him get paid off in two or three spots.


[/ QUOTE ]
that's the key to this value-bet.

Kenny

[mikelow]

Bet and call a raise. You can and will be called by A8, Ac-x, and even 9-8.

[Ulysses]

I could say more, but mikelow said enough:

"Bet and call a raise. You can and will be called by A8, Ac-x, and even 9-8."

[SLEEPER]

party 10-20 6 handed i have 6h6s on button everyone limps i limp, sb calls, bb raises, all call. 6 of us for 6 bbs.

the flop is 8c7c6d. sb checks, bb bets, utg calls, cutoff raises, i 3 bet, sb folds, all call.

the turn is Ah. bb bets, all call, i raise, all call.

the river is 2c. checked to me. what's my play, check or bet? and what if i bet and am checkraised?

"Bet and call a raise. You can and will be called by A8, Ac-x, and even 9-8."

When you get to the river, there are 5 players remaining..... you mean to tell me that in the long run, you have the best hand enough times that you can bet and call a raise?
Players limp/raise with 89 and go all the way with this board, this betting and this many players.....? people play A8?

This sounds like a 1/2 game, those hands are so weak.... let alone preflop, but when all this action is going on! I would be shitting bricks with a baby flush, let alone top pair or two pair with this board and this action..... You guys need to come and play at my table..... Does everyone agree with this? I don't understand.... BB raises, what in the world is he playing? Cutoff raises on the flop? What is he playing? The other two limpers call all of these bets the whole way, and then will turn over 89? A8?

This is more likely than any of these players holding 2 clubs, flopping a straight or having a higher set?

Crazy stuff..... I guess I should play 10-20 on party poker, i can quit my day job!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get to the river, there are 5 players remaining..... you mean to tell me that in the long run, you have the best hand enough times that you can bet and call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah. I mean, there's the pre-flop raiser who bet the flop, got passive, then bet the Ace on the turn. He probably has AK. If he has AcKc, he'll re-raise the turn. And anyone who flopped a straight will re-raise the turn as well. As will most guys with a set.

So, there's just not that much to worry about. Maybe one of CO or UTG had a flush draw. But there's a lot of other stuff they're more likely to have. And remember, they didn't bet the river. Some guys will checkraise here, but with a scary board, it's more likely a flush will just bet. Yeah, I'm a little bit worried about a flush. I'm not worried about a bigger set or a straight, though.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be shitting bricks with a baby flush,
....
guess I should play 10-20 on party poker, i can quit my day job!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're shitting bricks w/ a baby flush here, maybe you should hold off on playing 10-20 for a while.

[rigoletto]

When you get to the river, there are 5 players remaining..... you mean to tell me that in the long run, you have the best hand enough times that you can bet and call a raise?

I think the many players in is a reason to bet. Any flush would value bet here afraid that the flush card will kill action from the button and only few would go for the checkraise for the same reason. The amount of players also help protect you against stonecold bluffs. In addition you are likely to get called in several spots by inferior hands (given the size of the pot) so the odds on your bet are probably 1:2 or even 1:3 - in other words you only need to be good about 40% of the time which the turn and river action indicates will be the case.

I would also call a checkraise because it'll be a bluff often enough to merrit the odds.

[SoBeDude]

Hi Sleeper,

Welcome to the forum.

I admit I sometimes struggle with the river value bet issue myself. But I think this is a clear bet.

I don't know how long you've been playing online, but it took me a while to fully appreciate the losing hands people will call with on the river.

One thing I've taken to doing is grabbing hand histories after hands where I can't imagine WHAT my opponent(s) called me down with. Quite often I get a good laugh.

-Scott

[SLEEPER]

Maybe you are right.... I should probably hold off!

I have been playing for 4 months..... so I guess I am rushing through the limits. Although, I have yet to see any good players in the lower level games.

Most importantly, I have argued my point based on a typical 6/12 game.... If these players are alot looser, then I can see your reasoning.

Thanks for all the info!

[SLEEPER]

Can you please post the results!

Thanks

[PokerHorse]

I would bet here.It's hard to be sure but it appears that
you were against an over pair. Of course the flush or straight could be out there but there are more hands that will call you here if you are best.
good luck

[beerbandit]

I play 10-20 live games but none on the internet but I'm assuming there different. By my calculations there is about $470 in the pot. Depending on a lot of circumstances including table image-I would usually check. Even though that last card peeled made a flush possible-the idea of three players calling three rounds of raised pots on say top pair with kick is crazy. Your set is beat, bottom straight and low flush is going to call you or some over the top. It's even possible that you might have to call forty instead of twenty. The pot odds are giving many people a reason to call that twenty. How did the hand really turn out? Good Luck

[SA125]

"party 10-20 6 handed"

"people play A8?"

In a 6 handed game, especially with position, I don't think A8 is all that bad. With that flop and that board, all those raises aside , I think A8TP will win it's fair share. Have to be able to get away from it though. I can see maybe just checking and dragging here with the set.

"Crazy stuff..... I guess I should play 10-20 on party poker, i can quit my day job!"

Don't kid yourself. If you think A8o is crazy here, wait until you're up against it in full ring games and asking yourself "How'd he call 3 cold with that?" when you're watching chips go the other way. Not everyone online plays by the book.

Before you know it, you'll need 2 jobs. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
If you ask me there are only two hands that might pay off your bet. 99 and A8 suited with A of clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

A long time ago I stopped trying to figure out what specific worse hands can call me. I have found that my opponents are far more imaginative than I, and can come up with answers to that question that I would never dream of. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[andyfox]

Vince Lepore once gave the perfect answer. When asked, "What did they have?" when two players called with losing hands that didn't seem possible, he replied, "Money."

[mike l.]

i checked liked a little blind dumb deaf girl with her thumb in her mouth and my hand was good. im playing hideously lately.

[SA125]

Great answer. Great post. Have to add that to the arsenal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gabe]

I'd probably bet. I wouldn't like it though, because there are four players who have been in there all the way. I may lose more than half the time, but get paid off in two places a lot of times. There are some guys, when they check-raise, I might fold. I don't know the pots really big. I really hate it when I'm beat by 54. Man, I hate that one, I feel like a sucker.