5/10 UB, did I screw this up?

[ThinkBlue]

5/10 UB, I'm fairly new to the table, so no reads.

I pick up K /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif in Second Position. UTG folds, I raise, player to my left 3-bets, Folded to the BB whom calls, I call. Three to the flop.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB Checks, I bet, Both Call.

Turn makes it: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB Checks, I Bet, Raise to my left, BB Folds, I 3-bet, and it's Capped. I call, Heads up to the River

River: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I Bet, Raised, I call.. knowing exactly what's going to be shown to me. Guy to my left turns over the expected A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Anyways, this one stung. Couple Questions:

1) Should I cap it Preflop in this spot?

2) Does anyone Check/Call the river here?

3) If the River is a rag, does anyone consider Check/Folding the river, due to putting the other guy on a Set?

[Sqred]

I play those six hande tables on Party (5/10) once in a while and it is important to remember that that game attracts a wide variety of player types. Action junkies, smaller limit players taking a shot, ring game players looking to get some short handed experience, as well as really strong short handed players. It is really important to try to classify opponents as quickly as possible.

As far as the play of your hand goes you should have four bet it. There is no reason not to and a lot of good things that can happen if you do and you both miss while holding AK.

I like a checkraise on the flop either way because it will help define where you stand better. Namely do you get three bet.

When he smooth calls the flop after you open raised and bet out after being isolated alarm bells should be blaring in your head. When the Ace hits the turn and he raises you you know your hand is no good. I would like to think i could get away from this hand when raised on turn but I am probably not good enough.

Your bet on the river is just plain horrendous. What could he have, after the turn raise you would have to put him on AA, KK, or AK. He would not have just called the flop with AK, he cant have KK, so there you go.

In short handed games you need to remeber that calls are very bad signs from the in position player. Almost any marginal holding while heads up in a situation like this is worth a raise, thus the call is a set up attempt a lot of the time. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

FJM

[Manzanita]

Hi ThinkBlue,

Here are my thoughts on this hand [disclaimer: I play strictly B&M so I'm not aware of any idiosynchracies present in the various online games]

1) Should I cap it Preflop in this spot?

I wouldn't cap in this situation. Given that the 3-bettor is also in early position he will usually be playing AK or a big pocket pair. You are not a favorite at this point and I want to see the flop before I invest more money in my hand.

3) If the River is a rag, does anyone consider Check/Folding the river, due to putting the other guy on a Set?

I would not fold when the river is a rag, although it is a close decision. On the turn two Aces and two Kings are accounted for. This means that there is 1 way for your opponent to have AA, 1 way for him to have KK, and 4 ways for him to have AK. If you do the math, you will find that you will break even by just check-calling on the end. However, if your opponent has anything but these three hands you will make a profit. Since I am rarely 100% sure of anything I would call my opponent down in this situation.

2) Does anyone Check/Call the river here?

If you look at the hands that your opponent could have (after the King comes on the river) you will see that it has changed to 1 way for him to have AA and only 2 ways for him to have AK. This is (again) a break-even situation assuming that he actually has one of these two hands. For the same reason as above, I check-call here.

-- Manzanita

[ThinkBlue]

This wasn't a shorthanded table, but it doesn't make much difference post-flop.

After a lot of thought, I think the only thing I'd change, if I were to play this hand again, is the turn play. Call the 3-bet preflop, bet the flop, bet-call the Turn, and either bet-call or check-calling the River.

I certainly don't think a River bet is horrible. After the turn, I put him on either 88 or AA, with, in my opinion, 88 being at least as likely as AA. My hand was an open book the entire time, so I was about 95% sure he had AA after he raised the River.

[Bogatog]

Hmm, first off I don't know why people seem to want to discount the lower sets. 88 or even 66 is a plausible holding with this type of betting action.

Preflop I think it depends on the table. Sometimes I cap with AK and sometimes I just call the 3-bet.

The bet on the flop seems ok to me. Though I lean more towards a c/r.

Bet-call the turn seems like the right play the more I think about it. Assuming your opponent wouldn't isolate you with A8s or something equally rediculous you have to give his turn raise some credit.

This river would probably cost me some money as the only hand that I don't beat is AA and a split with AK. 66 and 88 seem like real enough possibilities to me that I would 3-bet and call his eventual cap.

[elysium]

hi think
i don't think you should cap the flop. the 3 bettor isn't bluffing and likely has a big pair. TT and even 88 are possible, as are QQ and JJ. the AA and KK are not favorites at this point, but you need to consider that possibility too.

on the flop, you're in the lead here think; notice the call. you could cap here if you had an opportunity to do so. he has you on KK. he thinks you have a set. he's weak tight here think. remember this because if you maintain solid play, you can fold this particular opponent, and get quite a few free-cards done correctly.

since this player has been playing tight all night....think, is your opponent a crusty ol' guy with a lot of dandruff? does he slam the cards down when everyone folds? and he wasn't very friendly either, is that right? yeah, you're din din hun. what did he do?

oh my. that is a mean man.

think, in this situation, don't think blue. think nuts.

[ike]

You could have saved a lot of bets here IMO. There was no need to 3-bet the turn and even less need to lead the river. I don't think you can possibly fold here because a chop is far too likely but theres no reason to be in a hurry to put in bets. On the turn what do you think he has that you want to 3 bet? On the river a bet will get 1 bet from 88 or 66, and lose 2 to AA. Check-call will still probably get 1 bet from 88 or 66 but will only lose one to AA. It seems like an easy choice to slow down here, your hand is "strong" but abstractly strong doesn't matter if you're probably beat anyway.

[DcifrThs]

Something funny happens here on the river when you bet.

after you bet and he raises there are 17 big bets in the pot. you said you were 95% sure he had aa after he raised on the river. you were getting 17:1 on the call. if he has you beat more than 1 out of 18 times then you should fold if you know for sure in aperfect world. of course it works out that you need to be right at least 94.4% of the time to make a fold "correct."

but if you're wrong you lose to much to not call. sooooo after the turn if you've narrowed his hands down to aa, kk, ak, or 88, you're not in too good of shape and you'd liek to make the best decision possible and cost yourself the least money on the river. keep in mind he now CANT have kk, 1 way for ak, 1 way for aa and 0 ways for 88 that he'd bet with because he knows you have some combo of those aces and kings and the k would queer his hand. Therefore if you check and he bets and has 88 he is wrong and your call is way right. if he checks 88 you have cost yourself money, 1 bet. if you bet you are wrong. you will get raised most of the time because the ONLY hand he could have that you beat after capping the turn is 88 that he'd CALL with. all the others he'd raise with and either tie you or beat you, 50/50 BUT its more like 75/25 or 3:1 dog to have ak since he CALLED the flop(ak would have raised here most of the time). sooo we see that the bet is wrong.

but checking and calling is right because the pot now has 14 bets and if he bets and you call you are certainly right because you can't be 95% sure anymore (he didn't raise b/c you checked) but have saved yourself a bet when wrong and made your decision good most of the time and you have no chance of losing the pot due to a fold.

sorry for the long post, just stuff to think about. questions? comments?
-Barron

PS- i also apologize for the haphazard nature of my thoughts since i am out of time and must now go (usually i like to structure my posts /images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

[Bogatog]

Ya know Think, it would seem my advice is not the norm here. But, I'm sticking to what I said because I'm pretty sure several posters are using the fact that we know he had AA to make their decisions. It just seems to me that people at a limit such as 5/10 aren't likely to to just call on the river with their boat. 88 and 66 if it got there. He could even have KQ and was trying some funky move on the turn.

If I'm wrong on all this I apologize for lame advice.

[ThinkBlue]

Honestly, Bog, I completely agree with you. I probably shouldn't have posted the results, though they were fairly obvious after the river raise. Here's my hand-range that I put him on.
Flop: QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AQ, maybe slowplaying 88 or AA
Turn (after first raise): AQ 50%, 88 30%, AA 20%
Turn (after cap): 88 60%, AA 30%, AQ 10%

Tell me something, is the jump from 3/6 to 5/10 so big as to eliminate that AQ possibility on the flop? I play 3/6 live, and some 3/6 (although, mostly tourneys) Online, and I can see a whole lot of people calling a bet on the flop with AQ, hoping for a miracle.

I've got a feeling that some of these comments are from 30/60+ players, whom are much smarter than I am, and used to playing against people that don't suck /images/graemlins/tongue.gif A few hands before this, I had AQ, Board was Q-rag-rag-rag-rag rainbow, I bet on every street, and got check-called down by 5-5. Live, I've watched a monster pot be played with 5-5 against K-Q, board KK5xx.. and it was 6-bet (heads up) on the river. Stuff like that makes me think that you can't automatically put a guy on AA/AK/KK after the turn. (Or, maybe, I should stick to 3/6 /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[Bogatog]

Well, I play on party mainly so that might be part of my reasoning but it wouldn't surprise me to have an opponent call with AQ on that flop.

Also, from what I've seen and read, live games are significantly more live than their online equals. 3/6 live plays like .50/1 and 1/2 on the net. I think I read it on here where someone said online poker is similar to a live game of twice the stakes.

Its possible that some posters are giving advice assuming game conditions that aren't accurate. I don't think many are though. If an opponent is reasonable its fairly easy to put him on a hand after having a chance to analyze all action like we can with this post. And as for putting your opponent on the monster hands, I am constantly amused by what people will give huge action with.