I can't beat fish....

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

First hand of 500 FPP satellite for Sunday's $215, and I get KTo. Flop is K-T-7. I push. One caller turns up Q6o. Turn 8. River 9. I'm gone.

I can't beat this kind of player. In order to win this kind of game, you have to end up with the best five-card hand, and I almost never have that.

Any ideas for how to have the best hand at the river?

Cris

[CrisBrown]

So far today, I have played: AA, AK (3x), AQs (2x), and AJ (in the BB). Those are the only hands I've played.

I've won one pot.

AJ.

It split.

Cris

[ohkanada]

All you can do is play each hand the best you can. Although I am not sure pushing all-in on the 1st hand is the best plan even with top 2, you did have an opponent call off his whole stack with only r/r possibilities.

That is considered a win. Sometime results suck.

Ken Poklitar

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
First hand of 500 FPP satellite for Sunday's $215, and I get KTo. Flop is K-T-7. I push. One caller turns up Q6o. Turn 8. River 9. I'm gone.

I can't beat this kind of player. In order to win this kind of game, you have to end up with the best five-card hand, and I almost never have that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cris,
You can't be serious, can you? The question should not be "How can I beat this game?" it should be, "How can I lose in this game". C'mon...you're above complaining about result oriented bad beats, aren't you?

-SossMan

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't beat this kind of player. In order to win this kind of game, you have to end up with the best five-card hand, and I almost never have that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you're not serious and just venting here. This was indeed an extremely sick beat.

But if you're serious and can't beat this type of player, your game needs a lot of work.

[William]

The FPP satellites are though, that is right, because of the high concentration of fish. You have to be patient and get involved with the best hand. If you survive the first few rounds, and can get your hands in a nice stack, it will work out fine.
If you are outdrawn, there is another satellite in a few hours, but as it was pointed out, you can only play your best and hope it will be a good day for fishing.

[SossMan]

Is this the new kinder, gentler William. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rusty JEDI]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi All,

First hand of 500 FPP satellite for Sunday's $215, and I get KTo. Flop is K-T-7. I push. One caller turns up Q6o. Turn 8. River 9. I'm gone.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as my strategy goes, KTo has no place in any hand i play in the first couple rounds. I will assume it was your blind and the hand went unraised preflop.

Now with the above assumption i cant understand pushing all in with that flop and a pot that small (being unraised preflop or else you would have folded your KTo). Instead I would hope to find a way to get some more money out of them and that is not the way to do it. Unless you check raised all in and forgot to mention that. But, that being said you somehow managed to get a caller anyway and everything after that is just bad beat.

rJ

[DrPhysic]

Cris,
IMHO, there is one major difference between what you are used to playing and what you are playing now.

You are accustomed to playing against good players who will lay a hand down against a reasonable to large bet. Therefore playing loose aggressive works. Which is your usual style as I have seen it, and I have spent some time watching you play.

Against the pure fish, you have to read carefully. Against a calling station, your bluff will never work. Only an idiot would bet or call with a 64o, but when the flop comes 964 rainbow, only the idiot can beat you. You have to read well, when the idiot starts betting hard on the turn or river. HE might be bluffing, but probably not. I try to identify the idiots and watch them even more carefully than the good players. When his betting pattern changes, watch it. And remember, fish get AA one hand in 221 just like everybody else.

So my thought pattern, in the first two hours of an addon tourn for instance, is stay tight aggressive, wait for the good cards, that means fold a lot and limp a lot. With a drawing hand, I will limp a lot. Even AK. It doesn’t beat anybody if they won’t fold and you don’t flop an A, a K, catch the flush, etc. Play the good cards hard when they come, but here the good cards are big pairs, 2p, trips, and up. But always be aware of the betting habits of the idiots. He will tell you every time when he has a big hand.

Brunson lists the “Trouble hands” as AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT. QJ, QT, JT, 98 all OFF suit. I watch those carefully, and generally play them only cautiously and late, if at all.

I would also recommend Zen and the Art of Poker. Very interesting. And very related.

I don’t take my own advice. Afternoon $20 on stars level 3: EP has been a caller or a single bb raiser. EP calls, I’m MP with AA. Raise 1bb, 4 callers. Flop is Qd 2d 8d. EP bets 200, I raise to 400. I figure a Q. 2fold. EP calls. He would have pushed right there with the flush. Turn 9s EP bets 480. I’m in love with my AA so I call. River Jh. EP all in. Takes about half my stack to call him because I love aces. I don’t know why I should be upset. He told me he didn’t have the flush, then told me twice he had a hand. Lost to QQQ. Lousy read on my part.

I don’t need to remind you that you are a much better player than I am, but frankly I think my advice here is valid. I play fish more than you do.

Doc

Edit: PS: Now you can tell me how to handle the LAST hour of the same tournaments.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Chris,

Go to RiveredAgain archive (http://www.riveredagain.com/archive/20030714.htm)

It happens to all of us. We want those players in the game. Just more variance in tourneys.

[William]

Kurn /images/graemlins/laugh.gif long time no see.
Hope all's well /images/graemlins/smile.gif
W.

[Kinli]

Great question, great responses. Thanks, all. I often face the same problem, since I now only play lower cost games, and if you get a few of these "I'll call or raise anything" idiots at the same table, it can get really frustrating really fast, in part because you often have to fold hands where you'd like to see a flop for a limp or small raise, and partly because the river is so often a dagger in the heart.

In fact, I always say the best hole cards are only the best until the board cards start to fall. When you're in a game where you're always going to see the river, skill pretty much goes out the window. Like Phil Helmuth indicates in his book, a game like that is about luck.

One or two of these guys I can handle. Give me three or four, and it starts to look like there's a "lucky seat" at the table.

I'm going to work on all this good advice.

Kinli

[M.B.E.]

Cris, these are 27-player, winner-take-all tourneys. If you win 6% of the time you're doing well. I've played eight and haven't won any, in fact only made one final table. When I play these I actually prefer to move in, early in the tournament, on good-but-not-great hands. Sometimes I'll get called by a bad player with a worse hand than mine, and double through, improving my probability of winning to about 10%. Other times I'll get called by a better hand, bust out early, and be happy to have saved myself two hours of drudgery.

[Bluff1]

M.B.E. I don't know what type of hands you use to move in on but I kinda do the same thing. Early in the 500fp sats I move in a lot preflop with Ak and Aq if I lose my coin flip o well. If I win then I go ahead and play my game.

[M.B.E.]

Actually I was thinking more of moving in on the flop with top pair weak kicker.