What the books say vs. what's really out there

[pittsburgh_kid]

Most of what I've read from Sklansky & Malmuth and the rest assumes that low-limit games are populated by players who are weak-tight, or loose-passive.

I've found that this is definitely not the case. While there certainly are some 'No-Fold-'Em' games out there, the majority of the low-limit games I've encountered have a lot of pre-flop raising. In a 3 hour session in a $4-8 game, it is not uncommon to watch 3 or more pots get capped pre-flop, with 5 or more players staying in. It is not uncommon for an opponent to cold-call 3 bets with 9-J o/s, or for a player to call a raise from the blind with ANY two suited cards.

These players are semi-bluffing with regularity; they bluff-raise. The answer isn't to just call them down, because they catch often enough (against 5 opponents, someone might just have a real hand!).

The games can be really good, but are very swingy: it's not uncommon to win $350 or lose $250.

I love reading the strategy books, and have built up a pretty big poker library, and have read and re-read (and in many cases read again) those books that I find valuable on my bookshelf (Roy Cooke's REAL POKER: The Play of the Hands; Caro's Book of Tells; Poker Essays, vol 1-3; Hold 'Em by Sklansky; Getting the Best of It; Theory of Poker; Hellmuth's PLAY POKER LIKE THE PROS), but universally, none of them deal with how to play in low-limit games that are loose-aggressive.

So far the best strategy I've found is Hellmuth's Top 10 Hands strategy, but also incorporating some of his intermediate strategy and some position moves. This very tight, very aggressive strategy reduces fluctations (key in this game, where limping, even in late position, can mean you have to call 2 more bets to see the flop). And, since most opponents are playing their cards, and not noticing tight tendencies too much, it doesn't give up too much information.

I'm in a regular game, with many of the same regular players every night, and by playing 1 or 2 'weird' hands per night, they still haven't picked up on the fact that I usually hold only strong cards (positive advertising).

Does this sound like the best strategy for the game I am describing? And are these the games everyone else is playing in?

[Alobar]

If you want to advance in your poker career at all, take helmuths book and throw it in the trash, then go out and get royally hammered on some heavy alcohol (I recommend bicardi 151) sniff some glue, and pray that when you wake up the next morning all the brain cells that have any memory of what phil said in his book have been destroyed.
Then go out and buy "Winning Low Limit Holdem" by Lee Jones as its the best book there is for how to play the low limit games. Did I mention to throw away Hellmuths book?

[Jezebel]

Actually, WLLHE would not be a good strategy in wild loose aggressive games that the original poster described.

As painful as it is to say, Hellmuth's strategy in these type of games is probably closer to correct. If it is capped every hand preflop, then playing only your top 5 hands or so might be the best strategy. (ie. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK)

I believe this is very close to the strategy S&M recommend in HEFAP, for wild games.

[LSUfan1]

In my short poker career, I have learned that Lee's book Winning Low Limit Hold'em is much much much better than anything I read in Hellmuth's book....Thanks to all here who sent me in the right direction. And although I have not thrown away Hellmuth's book, it is collecting dust!

[pittsburgh_kid]

while the games aren't capped every hand, at least one hand per hour is capped, and most hands are raised pre-flop.

everyone who limps will call a raise, and usually the blinds will, too. On average, whether there is a pre-flop raise or not, 5-6 players are seeing most flops.

To me, this means that most pots are a little bigger, but one pair hands have a harder time holding up, which lowers the value of unsuited high cards, but increases the value of pairs (it's worth it to try to flop a set in almost any case).

also, since there are so many players in pre-flop (and often for 2 bets), it's usually correct to call a flop bet with a gut shot straight draw, or a pair with an overcard to the board, so lots of players are seeing the turn.

[LSUfan1]

sounds to me like you need a strategy someone between Hellmuth and Jones....Maybe a mix of the 2. Patience is key!

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, WLLHE would not be a good strategy in wild loose aggressive games that the original poster described.

As painful as it is to say, Hellmuth's strategy in these type of games is probably closer to correct. If it is capped every hand preflop, then playing only your top 5 hands or so might be the best strategy. (ie. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK)

I believe this is very close to the strategy S&M recommend in HEFAP, for wild games.

[/ QUOTE ]

wllhe is exactly what you want to read for these type of games. jones assumes you are playing no foldem which is what the original poster was asking about.

[Jezebel]

Jones assumes a loose PASSIVE game for most of his strategy. A loose aggressive game with several maniacs requires some different strategies.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
Jones assumes a loose PASSIVE game for most of his strategy. A loose aggressive game with several maniacs requires some different strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]

your right. i just reread the original post again and i was wrong. he is asking about a loose aggressive game.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Jones assumes a loose PASSIVE game for most of his strategy. A loose aggressive game with several maniacs requires some different strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't call a game that gets capped pre flop once an hour a aggressive game, even a game that gets raised everytime pre flop. Its one guy with a good hand and 6 calling stations. Exactly the kind of game WLLHE is going to help you beat

[Losing all]

If it's getting capped once an hour, big deal. Muck anything but AA, KK Maybe a few more AK's, QQ, JJ, AQ's in these rare instances. If 5 or 6 are seeing the flop on a regular basis the game should be gravy. You can play a lot of hands from LP with 4 people already in, even for 2 bets.

[Dylan Wade]

The way I play against a table of LAG maniacs is similar to the way suggested by the infamous Russ G on RGP. Basically, at a table full of loose agressive players, we're playing showdown poker--except since our opponents are loose we will beat them every time.

You will incur huge swings, but since we're playing showdown poker, your main strategy pre-flop will be to get involved in situations where you're winning more than your fair share of the time if brought to a showdown. (Basically, look at the pokerroom.com chart of Hand EV vs X random players and if we have significant +EV for the hand, we can play it). If we're going to play a hand Pre-flop, go ahead and raise-reraise. This is better than calling, and we can be sure our limped will be raised behind us anyway. Also, position doesn't really matter in these super LAG tables; raises and bets have no strategic meaning.

We will further increase our advantage by playing tight on the flop. By this I mean, if we have 67s and we completely miss in every which way, it's an easy fold. But if we have a good piece of the flop we're going to a showdown. If we want to "take off one" and see the turn... we better make sure we have pot odds to call a CAP. It's goign to get raised behind, so don't start calling each raise one at a time because we have pot odds. You have to consider the big picture-future raises and stuff.

If we have a good flop, or draw, we are raising and re-raising in a blaze of glory. They're gonna raise it anyway, we might as well. It makes us look loose, but we really have an edge over our opponents.

Where do you play, though, I can rarely find a super LAG game that warrants this strategy.

Good luck!

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
While there certainly are some 'No-Fold-'Em' games out there, the majority of the low-limit games I've encountered have a lot of pre-flop raising. In a 3 hour session in a $4-8 game, it is not uncommon to watch 3 or more pots get capped pre-flop, with 5 or more players staying in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made some assumtions based on this post. First I'm assuming that the poster is playing in B&M since 4/8 is not a common limit for online. Second, I misread to believe he said that pots were getting capped 3 times an hour, which would average about once an orbit. This is not all that uncommon in a few of the 4/8 B&M games I have played in. My mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call a game that gets capped pre flop once an hour a aggressive game, even a game that gets raised everytime pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't consider a game that gets raised preflop every hand aggressive, what would you consider it?

I think alot of posters misinterpret what a passive game really is. Most poker authors are basing their use of the term "passive" on most low limit B&M games where raises are almost unheard of. Online play is MUCH more aggressive than the typical lowest limit B&M game. If you consider most online play passive and are adjusting your game to the way most poker authors say to play a passive game, then you are likely making some big mistakes. Granted there are occassional passive games online, but not many. At least not in the manner that most poker authors use the term, IMHO.

[pittsburgh_kid]

The game I am specifically referring to is a B&M game in a private club in NYC. The $4-8 game can be very wild, and the swings are pretty huge.

No one really respects raises - they play their cards. Playing hands like 76s will cost a lot of money, as it will be 2 bets to see the flop, and unless you flopped a monster, you can't be sure where you're at (if the flop comes 9 high, and there are 5 opponents, someone likely has A-9). Because there is a lot of action on the flop, and because the players play such a wide variety of hands, middle pair might be good, or it might be a big dog. Also, you can't get out those holding only overcards, so you really have to nail the flop or start with a big hand in order to take down the money.

Playing a very tight, 'big hands/big draws' strategy, I've reduced my swings. I'll play any pair; if I'm first in, I come in raising; if there are limpers and my pair is big, I raise; if my pair is small, I limp. No matter the action, I am seeing a flop with any pair, because I will rake a monster pot if I flop a set, and fold my hands if there are overcards on the board.

I also raise-re-raise with AK & AQ suited. I will open-raise with A-J, but won't re-raise with it (if there are limpers, depending on my position, I might raise or just call with it).

From the blinds, I will raise any pair (being a 7.5 to 1 dog to hit a set, I am usually getting great pot odds to do so, and even if I miss the flop, can bluff at it on the flop, depending on what comes; this also adds some deception).

But I am folding any unsuited connectors lower than 10-J, regardless of position. I am also folding any suited connectors lower than 10-J for more than one bet or in early position.

Also, 10-Q goes in the muck every time (have lost too much with that hand), and K-J gets played on if I have position and the action warrants it. And then I like to open-raise with it (more as a blind steal than anything else).

[Bob T.]

The books were written before the WPT went on TV. A lot of the new players, think that making moves, and running bluffs are a huge part of the game, because those are the parts of the show that make good drama, and those are the parts that make it past the edits. They don't show the two laps where noone ever sees a turn, because that isn't very entertaining.

The new players are just emulating what they see, and they don't know that the plays that they see, are fairly infrequent, and probably based on something that happened earlier.

You obviously have to make adjustments for the game, and you seem to have found some that work for you.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't consider a game that gets raised preflop every hand aggressive, what would you consider it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't consider it aggressive until there start to be 3 bets. If its raised by the same guy everytime and 6 people call, I dont consider that an aggresive table. If its a diff player that raises everytime and 6 people call, I still don't think its aggresive, just one guy with a good hand and 6 people donating chips.


[ QUOTE ]

I think alot of posters misinterpret what a passive game really is. Most poker authors are basing their use of the term "passive" on most low limit B&M games where raises are almost unheard of. Online play is MUCH more aggressive than the typical lowest limit B&M game. If you consider most online play passive and are adjusting your game to the way most poker authors say to play a passive game, then you are likely making some big mistakes. Granted there are occassional passive games online, but not many. At least not in the manner that most poker authors use the term, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point, I would be guilty of that as I have very little B&M experience. Looks like it's time to re read some books with that thought in mind

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I would second that response, but be sure to bury the book at the bottom of the trash.

[Mike]

I am with Bob T here. If it works for you stick with it. Playing different strategies for different game textures should not be a popularity contest. That's for the fish. If you are winning doing what you are doing, who cares, it works - right?

[Lost Wages]

This very tight, very aggressive strategy reduces fluctations

You should not be trying to reduce fluctuations, you should be maximizing EV.

..limping, even in late position, can mean you have to call 2 more bets to see the flop

Says who? There are a lot of times you try to limp in and its 2 more bets back to you that you should simply fold. Of course, if you know the players yet to act are aggressive you shouldn't be limping with marginal hands in the first place.

Lost Wages

[bdk3clash]

I play in the same 4-8 game in NYC that pittsburgh_kid describes, as do a few other 2+2 SSers, and what follows are my thoughts on this game.

First off, this game is inconsistent. It is not consistnetly loose-aggressive, or loose-passive, or tight-aggressive, or tight-passive. The players generally do not behave consistently, which can make things unpredictable. Nevertheless, the game is populated with subpar players.

However, these are not subpar players who know nothing about poker. Even the bad players in this game know poker, and they can give you fits. A truly bad pair in a casino, for example, will call a raise with a small pair, and continue to call your bets the whole way, including on the river. Essentially he's been drawing to two outs.

At this game, the player will call your raise and catch a piece of the flop, say second pair. There's 5 outs. Maybe he had a backdoor flush or gutshot straight draw that became a "real" draw on the turn. The point is, you'll often see some pretty fluky hands shown down. Given the pot size, they're often correct to call a bet on the flop, even with second pair.

Which brings me to a point...you must constantly keep track of the pot size in this game. You must know when the pot is big enought to chase (it often is) and when you must fold to a bet or a bet and a raise on the flop.

Every bet you make in this game is for value. There are a few players who will take into consideration your "table image," but in general, you are not going to scare people off if you play tightly, nor will you be able get them to fold because you only played 3 hands all night. Example: last night I folded every hand I received for over an hour. I picked up pocket tens in EMP and open-raised, and was called in 5 spots. (After the pre-flop action, one player looked up and asked "who raised?")

Raise from the blinds for value, not just with AA and KK. You should open raise pocket pairs TT-AA, AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo, and even KQs or AJs if you're feeling frisky. Yes, the flop will "miss you" most of the time. But with the multi-way action, you're getting an overlay on every extra bet that goes in preflop. Fooey on those who wish to keep the pot size small to induce mistakes from their opponents on the flop.

Bet the river for value. I don't care if you have 5 opponents and you "only" have TPTK. Bet the river. If you get raised, you will call and lose, but you will bet the river.

Tend to call down with overpairs when raised on the turn. You don't make your money in this game folding KK on a non-threatening board when your opponent check-raises you on the turn. Generally, you will be getting sufficient odds to make the crying calls on the two bets, as your opponent will invariably bet the river. Many of the frisky players in this game receive no greater satisfaction than from bluffing a "tight" player out of a pot.

Also, if you call the turn, call the river unless you were on a pure draw. Folding the river in large pots for one more bet can be borderline-catastrophic. See The Fur Coat Dilemma. (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31)

Play conservatively when your overcards miss. If it's heads up, I have a few ways I like to play when AK/AQ/KQ misses, depending on my opponent and my position, but once it's 3-handed, feel free to check-fold the flop when you miss, especially when out of position. If you're in LP, make a token bet on the flop, after that it's more art than science. I suck at this kind of stuff, so you're on your own.

Know when to ram and jam your strong draws. Read Abdul Jalib's Theory of Sucking Out (http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/outs-abdul.html) and Izmet Fekali's Ramming and Jamming on a Draw (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/26). If you are playing your draws passively in multi-way pots on the flop, you are leaving money on the table.

Know your opponents. Against some player (me, for example) it would probably be a bad idea to 3-bet with AQ, whereas with some players this is my standard play.

Play TT and JJ aggressively. I am amazed at how passive people are with these hands. JJ is an almost automatic 3-bet for me, TT I tend to muck to a raise but will almost always open-raise or raise with. Feel free to develop your own standards. People will call regularly with dominated hands (such as AX where X<10), which is one of the main profit sources in hold'em.

Low suited connectors are overrated by many players. Play them in LMP/LP for one bet if you must; otherwise, muck'em.

You must, must, must 3-bet when check-raised with TPTK or an overpair on the flop.

Finally, and most importantly, do not 3-bet me when I raise with TT, KQo, or any other non-quality hand.

[LetsRock]

Hmmm..... that's interesting.

I would think that Phil's ram and jam would be much more effective against a table full of rocks. One's who would run away from any pot with anything less than the nuts vs. any aggression what-so-ever.

I'll have to ponder your position on this and see if I can fit it into a LAG/LOOP game.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm..... that's interesting.

I would think that Phil's ram and jam would be much more effective against a table full of rocks. One's who would run away from any pot with anything less than the nuts vs. any aggression what-so-ever.

I'll have to ponder your position on this and see if I can fit it into a LAG/LOOP game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ramming and jamming with your draws on the flop has nothing to do with getting tight opponents to fold--these are all value bets, plain and simple.

And if you're referring to something Phil Hellmuth wrote in his book, I would have no idea what you're talking about, since I haven't read his book (and have been discourged from doing so by the people on this board that have read it.)

The basic premise (using a flush draw as an example) is that a flush draw is essentially a 1.9:1 proposition. If you have more than 2 opponents calling your bets/raises on the flop, you make money on every bet you put into the pot.

Have you read the articles I linked to?

[LetsRock]

I was refering to Helmuth's book. You should read it. I'm not saying you should follow his advice, but it's good to know where his followers are comimg from. They become quite obvious if you've read his book.

Basically, his "ram and jam" is not so much about draws as it is about pushing PPs around.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I was refering to Helmuth's book. You should read it. I'm not saying you should follow his advice, but it's good to know where his followers are comimg from. They become quite obvious if you've read his book.

Basically, his "ram and jam" is not so much about draws as it is about pushing PPs around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any strategy that is designed to make your opponents fold or "push them around" is destined to fail at most low limit tables.

Most of these players couldn't fold their laundry if they had to. They will call your fancy semi-bluff turn raise with your flush draw and your bluff on the river and win with second pair (or worse.) You will wonder out loud "how can they call with that on the turn?" Who's the real fish in this scenario?

Get big hands and bet them. Let the other players butt heads with their second pairs, stone-cold bluffs, "I thought you were bluffing," etc. That's why they are there--to gamble, to one-up, to satisfy their id.

Every once in a while, swoop down with strong cards, flop g00t, have it hold up, and scoop a monster. Resume folding. Rinse. Repeat.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? In many ways, it is.

[Alobar]

I'm sorry but any poker book that has me capping with 77 is a book I wouldn't want to read for fear it would pullute my mind, heh.

[Mike Gallo]

Johnny Rotten,

Awesome post.

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Jones assumes a loose PASSIVE game for most of his strategy. A loose aggressive game with several maniacs requires some different strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite agree. While most of the strategy text deals with "typical" games, you will notice that most of his starting hand recommendations mirror those of Hellmuth and Sklansky if there are raises in front - high pairs and AK.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Excellent post.

[bdk3clash]

Pittsburgh_kid:

Who are you? I'm Brad, the guy that keeps Blinky, the 3-eyed fish from "The Simpsons," on my chips.

http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9500945/toon/simpsons/bart/blinky.gif