CrisBrown and others, what is your SNG strategy (newbie)?

[fishhead]

Hey Cris, I'm interested in hearing your general take on NL SNG strategy (for home tourneys with $40-50 buyins). I know that the forum has covered situations extensively, but it would be helpful to have a general guide to follow at the various levels.

Tourney info:
- Players range between ultra tight to ultra loose with at least three seasoned players. The rest are fairly inexperienced.
- Table usually has 8-9 players
- We start with T100 with blinds starting at 2/4 and doubling every 15 minutes. (Any thoughts on improving this structure??)

Sorry for the general question, but I'm a newbie and could use some reference points. Thanks!

Fish

[William]

LOL You got the nick right pal. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CrisBrown]

Hiya fishhead,

Thanks for the implied compliment, though I'm sure there are others far more qualified to answer your questions than I am. However, I'll take a shot....

First, the blind structure -- only 25xBB to start -- forces the play to move pretty quickly. By way of comparision, at a PokerStars SNG you would start with 75xBB (T1500, blinds start at 10/20). Your structure is closer to that found at PartyPoker, so the PartyPoker players would be better able to answer structure-related questions.

You don't list the payout, and that's important in terms of strategy. If it's winner-take-all, you should (in general) play it exactly as you would a ring game, playing any +EV situation. The exception is that you want a bigger edge in survival situations, i.e.: all-in and covered.

If you pay the top three, then things change. Here you are better off avoiding marginally +EV situations early, while the weaker, looser players are still running wild. You're better off playing solid, conservative poker, picking your spots (premium cards, or strong cards in good position) and taking advantage of the looser players to build your stack.

The general principles for a loose-aggressive table are:

* Tighten up considerably on big cards and pocket pairs, as these often don't do well in multi-way pots. Hands like QQ and JJ can get you killed here; play them for set value (in cheap, out if the flop doesn't favor you) rather than pair value.

* Slowplay AA and KK. The looser players will do your betting for you, and you can demolish them if the flop hits you. You can also get out cheaply if the flop is horrible, e.g.: three of a suit where you don't have that suit. You want to win big pots and avoid big losses with these hands.

* Loosen up A LITTLE on strong drawing hands when you have position. These include medium and small pairs (played for set value) and strong suited connectors (no one-gaps, 76 or higher). If you can get in cheaply, and have position, you can do very well with these hands. But I wouldn't call any raises with them, as your structure is such that you will bleed away your stack very quickly by calling into pots on hands where you need a flop to hit you or you're gone.

* Bluff and semi-bluff less (if at all). If they're going to call you, you have to show down the best hand to win the pot. It's as simple as that.

* Bet for value more. Conversely, if they're going to call you, then you should bet your good hands for value, letting them call off their stacks on inferior hands. Loose games favor improved hands (two pair or better), so when you get one, make them pay to chase.

In the later rounds, as the looser players fall out and the table is short-handed, you can open up your game. Remember that the value of hands changes with the number of players at the table and the size of the blinds. ATs is a drawing hand (at best) at a full table on deep money. In a short-handed situation on big blinds, it becomes a stronger hand that should be played aggressively.

Once the blinds get big enough, though, it really becomes a crap shoot. If your standard open raise would be more than 1/3rd of your stack, or if you have a hand with which you'd call a reraise regardless, you should just move all-in and put them to the test.

Obviously, once it gets to heads-up, you're going to shift to heads-up strategy: raise (and be willing to go all-in) with any Ace or King, any two cards that would total 18 or more in Blackjack, and pocket pairs. See as many flops as you can, and try to take every pot where you have or hit anything, or where your opponent has or hits nothing.

I hope this helps,

Cris

[fishhead]

Thanks! That was a really clear one pager for a newbie. One question: why wouldn't you push with AA and KK PF even in the early rounds? I understand that big cards don't play well multiway, but it seems that you could double up early if you have a loose caller or two. If you wait for the flop, it seems that the loose callers could hit wierd double pairs and stuff. Doesn't it make better sense to play big hands aggressively preflop?

Thanks again. Anyone else with general thoughts? William? (Not to start a Cris/William debate, but you guys have different strategies which are super helpful for us newbies!)

[CrisBrown]

Hiya fishhead,

As for why to not push with AA or KK early on, it's one thing if you're going to get one or two loose callers. It's quite another if you're going to get six. Yes, you still have the best hand, but your odds of winning the pot are greatly diminished.

AA and KK are monster pairs, but each is only ONE pair. Loose games favor improved hands (two pair or better). So unless you hit a set or the board pairs, all you have is one pair ... and that's a dangerous hand to have in a multi-way pot.

Cris

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]


Obviously, once it gets to heads-up, you're going to shift to heads-up strategy: raise (and be willing to go all-in) with any two cards that would total 18 or more in blackjack

[/ QUOTE ]

Pocket aces = 12 in blackjack, should I playing those heads up? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Or maybe I should split to the dealers 6.

[TheGrifter]

If you can get all your money in preflop with AA, shoot first and ask questions later. I think an inexperienced player (especially) will get in more trouble slowplaying big pairs than just playing them strong.

[Stagemusic]

Very nice concise one stop shot at SNG strategy Cris. I will only take one minor exception and that is the AA,KK. I will almost always bet these as hard as possible, keeping in mind the possibility of a terrible flop as you said. I have seen far too many slowplayed AA's keep players in the game only for them to hit their draws. I want them to pay through the nose for the opportunity to hit their 2 or 3 outer. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[William]

Anyone else with general thoughts? William? (Not to start a Cris/William debate, but you guys have different strategies which are super helpful for us newbies!)

So you're a newbie, you have a nick that begs to be laughed at, you know everything about Cris and I, you post a question to "Cris first and others", you remember to mention me after pointing out the "questionnable advice about playing big pairs" (perhaps you knew or at least hoped something juicy would appear in Cris answer?) but you arer not trying to start a debate?

If I should name what I believe to be my best ability at poker, it would definitely be my read on opponents, and this time, my read on you tells me you are nothing than a troublemaker, trying to get me to flame Cris.

If I am wrong(wich I very much doubt) my deepest apologies.
If I am not, there are no words to express what I think of you /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[fishhead]

Hey William-

It absolutely was not my intention to get you to flame Cris or anyone. I didn't reference your name after discussing some questions on playing big pairs (this was purely coicidental, believe me). I have been reading the forum for a while now and have been trying to learn different styles. It seems that you and Cris have had different approaches in certain game textures in the past, and it is helpful as a newbie to hear how your general strategy varies. So any perspectives that you may add are great reading for someone learning the game. So no, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, and yes, I'm a newbie who has played in a total of less than 10 home tourneys with varying results (two wins, a few seconds and the rest on the bubble).

Anyway, thanks to everyone else for their perspectives.

Fish

[Pitcher]

Hi All,

The big pairs debate misses a point. In a limit SnG I would not necessarily raise AA or KK into 5-6 callers. In NL, I am going to push all my chips in the middle and maybe get one or two callers. That is a completely different situation. I think we pretty much all realize this.

Nice reply Cris.

Note that Stagemusic has posted a nice, fairly detailed guide that I think is also a good start. You can find it at http://winningonlinepoker.com/

Pitcher

[ThaSaltCracka]

wow! what a post!
Cris I can tell your a writer. I do not consider myself a newbie, but damn that post will help me a lot. Although I do agree with everyone else on the AA, KK play. You have to raise this, either try to take the pot right there or make it so that its you against one or two opponents, you shouldn't let someone with a "draw" see the flop. I would also like to say I know what Cris was trying to allude to, AA against 5-6 opponents is only like a 30% favorite(my guessetimate), but against 1-2 opponents it jumps to like 70%, I think.

good post Cris!

[AleoMagus]

Nice site, I have never seen it before. As I was reading through it I came across one thing which peaked my interest and I'd love for you to clarify

[ QUOTE ]
Over the course of hundreds of SNG tournaments there are certain things that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

1. I will place in the money in 67% of the SNG tournaments that I enter at whatever level.
2. The 67% of my money places will break down to:
35% First
20% Second
45% Third ( I have to keep working on this)

On a $10 SNG the money is broken down quite easily (Once again, Poker Stars is different due to 9 seat tables) to 50-30-20. So here is the breakdown of 10 tournaments.

Total buy in for prize money: $100
Total rake $10
Total entry fees $110

Total Money finishes (67%) 6.7 (round to 7)
Approximate places: First 2.5
2nd 1.5
3rd 3.0

The prize money breaks down to:

First 125.00
2nd 45.00
3rd 60.00
Total $230.00

Does this happen every single time I play 10 SNG’s? Nope. I have had streaks where I have gone 7 or 8 SNG’s without even a sniff of the money. Then I will place in 5 or more in a row. But the math does work out every single month. SNG tourneys can be a VERY profitable experience for the solid player. Since it takes about an hour and a half (at the extreme) to play a SNG I know that my hourly rate is somewhere around 17 dollars an hour for a $10 tourney. That’s about the equivalent of a 2.5 BB per hour rate on a 3-6 table. This is a rate that any full time ring player could live with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these figures given as an example to explain ROI or are these comparable to your actual results. I consider myself a pretty good SNG player and put in a LOT of tournaments but have results nothing like these. What you are suggesting here is that you have a ROI of over 100% in SNGs. This is mind boggling to me, as is a 67% money finish record.

Maybe I am just a skeptic but if these are your results, I'd be really interested in the size of the sample that you derived this from. I suppose I have gone on 30-50 tourney stretches where my ROI was as high as 80%, but I've never seen anything that big lasting for too long.

Maybe I just have a lot more to learn but I can't even imagine how one would attain results like that. If they are your results - please tell me how to do it too!

Regards,
Brad S

[Prickly Pete]

Brad,

I agree these numbers seem awfully high. I know StageMusic is a strong player, so perhaps at the $10 level - I don't know how beatable they are. But to say you can finish 67% in the money "at whatever level"? I don't believe anyone alive can do that for any decent period of time at the $100 and above levels.

[Stagemusic]

Thanks for the comments. They were actually my figures at the time of the writing and they reflected my actual results at the 5 and 10 tables on Stars and the 10 tables on Party. This has started to settle down by quite a bit and the % is now right around 57-59% as I have moved up in levels. The ROI is still very good but nothing like what it was when I wrote that. As I have improved I am actually seeing more 3rds than anything which I attribute to a willingness to shove in on quality hands without fear and letting the cards take the hand to conclusion. It seems a little weird to me that an improvement in skills would drop a player in places but it's most likely a result of moving up in levels. I make more money now but it does hurt the ego some /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stagemusic]

Yeah, the whatever level comment was pretty stupid of me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I was feeling pretty full of myself right about then and it came through in the writing. See my post above for more information. /images/graemlins/grin.gif