Lost for the first time in a while, I think.

[Joe Tall]

10-20 Foxwoods tonight. I don't post up here often but I think this hand belongs up here.

Super-Aggressive, Super-ticky, Full Blown Maniac in the Big Blind.
Decent Player UTG who seems to be bothered by the maniac.

UTG raises, 2 folds to me and I 3-bet w/J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
3-cold callers and the Maniac BB caps. UTG call and I call.

FLOP: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Maniac bets, UTG raises, I cold-call, 3-others fold. Maniac 3-bets, UTG calls, I call.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/club.gif

Maniac checks, UTG says, "What's this? Now you check?" and bets, I call, Maniac calls.

River: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Maniac checks, UTG bets, I raise, now the Maniac 3-bets and UTG seems to be steaming and caps, I call.

Comments on all streets welcome.

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Joe Tall

[Kenshin]

I dislike the cold call on the flop, do you think the gut shot draw adds sufficient equity to play against an overpair?. Once you call, you effectively commit yourself to the pot. Turn and river (obviously) you played correctly.

Kenshin

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike the cold call on the flop, do you think the gut shot draw adds sufficient equity to play against an overpair?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't put the maniac on an overpair. And I surely thought that UTG was isolating the maniac w/overcards. I was also sure if I 3-bet the maniac would cap. Therefore, I cold-called and if UTG capped, I knew I was behind. Once he called the maniac's auto-3-bet of the flop, overcards it is. The pot is really to big to fold the flop, I feel.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[SA125]

"UTG raises, 2 folds to me and I 3-bet w/J J
3-cold callers and the Maniac BB caps. UTG call and I call."

"Maniac bets, UTG raises, I cold-call, 3-others fold"

You had 3 cold callers to a 3 bet and then of course they called the cap. They then folded on the flop. Wow.

Is it because you had a read on this that you didn't 3 bet the flop?

Because I could see UTG doing the standard AK raise and the maniac doing the cap anything thing on the blind. So when you overpair the flop w/gutshot draw, I'd give that another 3 bet to put pressure on cold callers, maniac and UTG.

If they cap, go from there.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
You had 3 cold callers to a 3 bet and then of course they called the cap. They then folded on the flop. Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The games have been extemely wild and loose. A lot of the older-call station regulars behind me see a monster pot, then a flop and fit-or-fold. They all seem to be confused now a days, I'd say.

I kind of let that out that most of the callers were call-station-regulars.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[astroglide]

with the maniac checking the turn i'd be inclined to raise it and take a free showdown unimproved

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
with the maniac checking the turn i'd be inclined to raise it and take a free showdown unimproved

[/ QUOTE ]

astroglide,

Even with a good chance of getting 3-bet by UTG?

With the Ace coming off I know he's got a big hand when he says that and bets. I know he does not have AA, morelikely AK, AQ, given his flop re-action to the maniacs 3-bet.

He also knows that I have a big hand from my preflop action. He did look confused to my cold-call on the flop, yet has no fear now that the Ace has come off on the turn.

With the maniac being unpredictable, I feel calling the turn, is default.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[CrackerZack]

Wow...interesting game. Maniac really screwing up table dynamics if you have 3 cold-calls of a 3-bet PF. Sounds like a game I'd like. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the flop I think I'd 3-bet to make sure your cold callers behind fold most hands. You want the button if you can get it and this is your best bet. Maniac is gonna cap, you know it, they know it, make sure they know its gonna be 4 bets for that turn card by making it 3 to them now. It would be nice to see if UTG would cap but even if he did you have too much hand to fold on the turn and there is a huge chance you're boss right now and want to limit the field.

Turn card sucks but maniac checking is a bit of a blessing as facing 2 cold here sucks and you have to play on. You're most likely drawing to 4 outs here but probably have to pay off with the last 2 jacks.

River is salvation. Make sure its cap and expect at least half the pot, probably all.

Sounds like a game with wild swings, hold on to your hat and fire with both barrels when you got it.

[bernie]

i would 3 bet the flop hoping the maniac caps and causes the UTG to fold. i want it HU with the maniac. i dont want a 'decent' player in the pot with me.

it may also have slowed down the UTG, if he calls, on the turn even if he hits his Ace since he may go for the c/r. then you can decide whether to bet or check behind.

b

[turnipmonster]

I would 3 bet to get it heads up with the maniac. any A,Q or K is going to slow you way down, whereas you can extract many more bets from maniac if you are heads up and a scare card does hit.

--turnipmonster

[bunky9590]

Wow, tough game, but I love maniacs at the table.

(I'm usually the maniac, LOL)

Preflop (played perfectly)

Flop:
You could make a case for three betting the flop with the overpair/gutshot draw, but if the maniac is going to raise it for you, let him do it.

Turn: You have to call here, pot is huge and you have outs. I wouldn't like the Ace though.

River: Miracles do happen after all. I just hope the maniac didn't stumble into it with QJ and drag that pot.

[Mike Gallo]

Joe,

Given your description of the players involved, I do not think you played the hand badly.

I would have played it the same way. Not that that means anything /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I doubt the decent player had nuts with KQ.

[bunky9590]

Wouldn't the nuts be QJ???

[MRBAA]

Joe, as you know my HE game needs work. But I think you played this hand beautifully. I love your call on the flop -- because it gives utg a chance to cap and TELL you you're beat by AA, KK or QQ (I guess he could also do this with 10s). Turn call absolutely not a raise. I assume the maniac did not have QJ.

[Mike Gallo]

Bunky,

Wouldn't the nuts be QJ???

I stand corrected.

[Joe Tall]

Maniac showed TT, UTG showed AQ and my hand was good.

I'm still intested in to what others may think about the flop play.

Thank you for all your responses.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Mike Gallo]

I'm still intested in to what others may think about the flop play.

I liked you flop play.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I liked you flop play.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are one of the few. I just can't see 3-betting when it's very unlikely UTG will fold overcards in this monster pot after the maniac caps.

He was the classic 'cheap-street' maniac. Preflop/Flop - bonkers, Turn/River unimproved - check/call.

Peace,
Joe

[GuyOnTilt]

with the maniac checking the turn i'd be inclined to raise it and take a free showdown unimproved/

I really dislike this. Getting 3-bet sucks.

GoT

[elysium]

hi joe
the pre-flop can be raised, but calling is better. it doesn't matter here though. you're looking at a cap. the reraise pre-flop is fine.

on the pre-flop, if you had called, you could try to grab this bull by the horns. as it is, can you sense how you're holding onto his tail for dear life? you get that sense here.

good UTG joe. love it. huh? that guy's great. good man that UTG is on the turn here. he's got AK.

the maniac now comes running over to assist you on the river. a six joe. he has all of a six. yeah shoot, cap it.

i really like the UTG's spontaneity on the turn. he just crushes the maniacs aggression. that's good joe. i have never had that type of spontaneity against a maniac ever work to my disadvantage. and that's really all the maniac responds to. try getting spontaneous sometime without the goods. notice also that on the turn, your far more concerned about the aggression than you are about not being in the lead against a stronger opponent as long as that stronger opponent can contain the aggression when you have a hand that can improve, or joe, when you have a hand that can improve and also might be in the lead.

the UTG bets and tells you that you're not in the lead, but you're so happy that the maniac has slowed down because of the UTG bet, that you gladly call.

wait, i'm just now realizing i have the betting order.....eh, you're acting before the maniac. well, you know the maniac is calling, not raising. joe, it's something that you know, and the call is fine on the basis of your expectation even though this aggressive is a maniac. that's how devestatingly well the UTG took control.

the odds appear to be better than they are though. you must call in this one particular situation. without the maniac in there, this is a must fold. it's not so much an issue of odds. it's more an issue of how the hand was played. 14 out 15 times, the conditions and action will make the turn call wrong. and when, in this situation, is it ever correct except here, to call a solid UTG on the turn, with a maniac raiser left to act behind you? joe, i doubt that there is anyone here at 2+2 who has seen a situation such as this when it's correct to call the turn. interestingly, the call is clearly in the positive ev because of the incredibly unique situation. it's an easy call. but no one here has ever advised that you make this call in this situation. i haven't looked at the responses; there will be some responses that are critical of the call, but those responders here who say it is a good call have never said that before in this situation. i've never seen this before.

mr. sklansky says that a call that seemingly gives you correct pot odds, is nonetheless sometime incorrect to make because of how the hand was played. this is the reverse of that. here, how the hand was played makes this otherwise unfavorable situation and position that normally makes calling incorrect, nonetheless correct. boy, did i butcher that up pretty good.

anyway, this is a first. anybody ever advise calling here with the maniac yet to act? remember, this is an inside one card mirage draw. anyone?

[Lawrence Ng]

I will put UTG on a big pair as well. Maniac could have anything. On the flop I think you may be second best.

On the turn, UTG bet pretty much signals he's screaming AA. Nice tell on his part. You can't raise here anymore as UTG obviously does not fear the ace.

On the river, given your situation, I don't think you could've played it any differently. UTG must know his AA or big pair is no good. Maybe it's a 3 way chop, but no way do you fold.

[astroglide]

really? odds are already there on the turn for a 4 or 6-outer, the maniac can rate to call because of his check, and utg will probably only 3bet if he has exactly 2 aces.

i wouldn't mind if i got 3bet in this spot, and i don't think it would happen often enough to scare me away from a free showdown or extra 2 bets scenario.

the fact that utg wigged out on the river doesn't apply to my turn decision, because i'm making it on the turn with the information i have at that point in time. on the turn, i think the maniac is slowing down, and i don't expect utg to 3bet with less than 3 aces.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
on the pre-flop, if you had called, you could try to grab this bull by the horns. as it is, can you sense how you're holding onto his tail for dear life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting view, ely.

[ QUOTE ]
anybody ever advise calling here with the maniac yet to act? remember, this is an inside one card mirage draw. anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mirage draw meaning 'not the nuts', I assume. I understand that the call on the turn becomes thin when UTG bets as the Ace off but I think it is correct.

Thanks for you reply,
Joe Tall

[rigoletto]

If this is how you get lost I wouldn't worry to much /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is how you get lost I wouldn't worry to much

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks brother, you know me, I'm not used to cold-calling. It felt like walking in someone else's shoes for a second. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[hutz]

I'm still intested in to what others may think about the flop play.

Hmmmmm . . . cold-call (yuk) or 3-bet? If you 3-bet, you (1) likely clear the field between you and the maniac and (2) likely get raised by the maniac and put the UTG player to a tough test if he has overcards. The pot's already huge and you need to do what you can to win it now. I think a 3-bet is really the only reasonable play here.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still intested in to what others may think about the flop play.

Hmmmmm . . . cold-call (yuk) or 3-bet? If you 3-bet, you (1) likely clear the field between you and the maniac and (2) likely get raised by the maniac and put the UTG player to a tough test if he has overcards. The pot's already huge and you need to do what you can to win it now. I think a 3-bet is really the only reasonable play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah.. decent player bothered by the maniac! He'll see Joe's 3-bet as an isolation move and peel one off. I believe it's better to cold call and make your move on the turn unless an A falls.

[hutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Nah.. decent player bothered by the maniac! He'll see Joe's 3-bet as an isolation move and peel one off. I believe it's better to cold call and make your move on the turn unless an A falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says UTG has to have an ace? With the maniac in the hand on UTG's immediate right, wouldn't it be reasonable for UTG to have played like that with KQs? Even if he does have an ace, it's likely to be paired with a king or queen (more overcards). Regardless of that, Joe still has players yet to act behind him who called three bets cold before the flop. Don't you think there's probably a non-ace overcard or two, or three, or more lurking in there somewhere? Are you discounting the value of narrowing the collective outs of the field drawing against you? Push 'em out or make 'em pay to draw! Joe's hand is vulnerable to many more cards than just three aces on the turn.

[elysium]

hi joe
mirage draw is a hand like 88 on a 79T; a one card draw is something like A8 on a board of 679. your hand was an inside mirage draw. notice that there is no card coming out of the deck that can help you without giving your opponent a better hand. thus the term mirage. the outs are a mirage.

[Buckshot]

I don't think you can just cold call here with position. I think the flop certainly warrants a cap. Then you can play accordingly.

~stephen

[beerbandit]

I have to agree also that the cold call may have been a bad play. If you were prepared to call a raise it would be more effective to have the raise coming from you. It also would make it tough for the three players to call a raised pot cold once again. This sounds like a pretty good game to be involved in. How's you do that night?