Played Perfectly or Missed Bets?

[Jeffage]

15-30 online. I have JJ in the BB. 3 callers to the SB who raises. I call, others call. I considered reraising but thought it would be better to look at the flop first where I could then raise if I liked it (since SB would bet it for me). Others call the raise. Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB bets, I raise. Others fold. He calls. Turn is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He checks, I check. I have the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif as backup, may be ahead and don't want to be checkraised. Who bets here to hopefully fold something like KQ? River is a rag. He checks again, I bet. He calls. Comments?

Jeff

[Manzanita]

Jeff,

I like betting the turn in this hand for a few reasons. The Ace may have given the SB top pair and there's a small chance that the SB may put you on the flush and fold, especially if he doesn't have a heart. And if the SB does have a single heart I don't like giving him a free card with three hearts on board. Finally, as you point out, you have outs with your J /images/graemlins/heart.gif that could save your ass.

When a blank comes on the river I would usually just check behind. I suspect that the SB is ahead but you have enough of a hand to show down.

-- Manzanita

[HiatusOver]

>>>I like betting the turn in this hand for a few reasons. The Ace may have given the SB top pair and there's a small chance that the SB may put you on the flush and fold, especially if he doesn't have a heart<<<

Manz...we are playing ONLINE LIMIT HOLD EM here! There is no chance our opponent is folding an ace here and I can't believe you actually posted that. Also, the value bet on the river is pretty standard IMO.


jeffage i think you played the hand well, though betting the turn wouldnt be far off either

[astroglide]

i think the river bet is seriously thin. checking the turn is totally correct.

[astroglide]

it's online 15/30. there is a 0% chance of somebody laying down an ace. checking the turn saves money against aces and induces bluffs. it also keeps him from calling a raise w/a jack high flush draw (possibly dead) if he's behind.

[DiamondDave]

I think this is a mandatory re-raise preflop. People who raise from the blinds generally have a big pair (like yours) or something that "plays well multiway", which could be anything from AKs to 65s. You need to find out which it is right now.

If he has pocket aces, it's better to raise now (with other callers sweetening the pot in case you hit a set) and find out the truth immediately than raise him later with one pair (and help him get it heads-up with you). If he has something suited, you're in front and shouldn't miss an opportunity to charge everyone lots of bets to see the flop.

Also, betting the turn and checking the river sounds a lot better than checking the turn and betting the river.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
the value bet on the river is pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe i'm weak, but i disagree. this bet is very thin i think. what exactly are we hoping SB has? pocket nines or tens, i guess.. i think betting the turn and checking the river is not a terrible plan. there is some chance you can get him to fold QQ, KK.

[Jeffage]

Astro and others,

I don't know about the river. I don't see many people checking twice with an ace when I checked behind on the turn. He would probably put me on exactly the hand I have...some kinda pair with a heart and not an ace. When he checks the river, I'm putting him on something like 5's, 7's, 9's, 10's and I'm gonna bet and see what it collects. If he played the ace weak, at least I know he won't raise me with it on the end (if somehow he did, I fold).

Jeff

[Jeffage]

I agree with others...no one is folding an ace here ever (online loose aggressive games where everyone puts you on a hand they beat). But some party players are aggro enough to checkraise me with something like KQ with the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I'd lay down the best hand. Of course he could also sandbag with the best hand. This is why I think checking is probably best.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

I don't dissagree with raising JJ here necessarily. But note that I won't get much info out of it. He would certainly 4-bet with less than AA or AK (AK/AQs or off or something like 99 because he feels like it) in these games. Also, what will I do with this info. If I flop favorable I'm not gonna be able to fold in this spot just cause he capped pre. If I raise, it's for value not info.

I think your turn logic may be off. I'd rather check with outs and bet hopeless hands in this spot. My JJ may be best and I don't want to be ran off it. My heart could save me if I take the freebie and was behind. If I didn't have the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'd agree more with betting turn, checking river (though I certainly wouldn't rule out checking).

Jeff

[astroglide]

i think it would be appropriate to call a turn raise (and appropriate to bet the turn) if he's highly likely to raise you with a worse hand; odds are fair enough that you are either winning or drawing to a win

as for the 'weak ace' thing, a lot of people will strangely back off with flopped trips or fear of a flush. kings and queens are still a moderate factor. getting checkraised there is a bitch too.

if he's the type to call with any pair there, by all means, bet. it still don't think it's the fairest of waters.

[elysium]

hi jeff
perfect. that's perfect play. you don't raise pre-flop because JJ, unlike QQ, needs to see the flop with this many in. the QQ you almost always protect in this same situation. then, on the flop, you correctly make a drive-out raise because while you might be in the lead now, there are a few over-cards you wouldn't like to see, and while your raise doesn't drive the overs out of the deck, it does drive out the overs in the field.

on the turn, the SB checks indicating that he doesn't have the flush draw, and is not strong enough to bet into a raiser who may have raised for the free-card. this is telling you that he has black cards and that you're not in danger of getting check-raised. however, instead of trying to fold him out, you instead allow your hand to improve at minimal cost. but you also do something else i like. on the turn, you realize that betting into your opponent may be answered with a check-raise. you also know that unless you improve, you're not likely going to be in the lead on the river. but if this opponent checks on the river, you will likely be in the lead, and if he check-raises the river, he has shown enough turn and river weakness to make the call of his possible check-raise ev positive. if you bet on the turn for a free-river show-down and to stop a river bluff, if you get check-raised on the turn, your opponent has made the correct decision because now you're paying top dollar to improve into the lead. you correctly drag this opponent down onto your turf, onto the river, where you use your position to its fullest. now if he checks you have a clear value bet. if he bets, you can easily call. if he check-raises, again easy call. so you don't bet the turn because the river gives you greater clarity. this clarity, if you'll notice, is not generated by the cards, its generated by your opponents action. when he checks into you on the river, 2 pair wins.

yeah i know jeff. you don't have 2 pair. this is why i like how you played even more than if you had 2 pair. you probably lose this one. however, your excellent strategy saved you as many as 2 or 3 big bets. and no, this isn't the type hand that you want to go firing chips with. this is exactly the perfect example of how to maximize your dollar in razor thin marginal situations against an opponent that you cannot out-play but that you can out-fight. and dragging him down onto your turf is the best possible move here.