Why J J is a worthless hand.

[Gh0stBuster]

I have gotten into more trouble and lost more pots with J J than any other hand in hold em. The problem with hooks is that they look like a monster when in reality they are a major underdog to any overcards or hands with a Q K or A in them. As a result the player with JJ often overbets his hand and loses more money than they should have. The only time Ive really seen Jacks win is when the flop comes all under cards against 1 or 2 opponents. But in this situation your opponets with either fold their AQ, AK, etc. or re raise you with their low set. In either situation you are either going to lose alot or win a little. I have busted out countless times in tournaments and seen people bust out countless times in tournaments with JJ all-in preflop or an all-in on a flop with a Q or higher in it. If your smart enough to lay it down on the flop with the high card in it youve still lost the preflop bets. The ONLY exception to when Jacks are good is when you flop a set with no real straight or flush possibilties. However, this situation is so rare its not even worth the effort. Raise with JJ, I think not. On the contrary, I say FOLD. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ZeeJustin]

Come sit at my table please.

[CrackerZack]

Just because you play it poorly, doesn't mean its a bad hand. Its a tough hand in big bet to play, but its a tough hand in limit to play and easy to play it wrong in both games. This bad play is much more pronounced in big bet games though. Get better.

[Warik]

I guess we should just all fold JJ preflop then.

[unome]

That's why you should almost always three bet w/ Jacks preflop -- get those overcards out and take control of the hand.

[JTG51]

So you were just kidding when you announced in this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=473894&page=&view=&sb =5&o=) post that you were quitting poker?

[BaronVonCP]

Its my 3rd most profitable hand! I think QQ may need 20,000 or so more hands to catch up.

EDIT: This was not meant to be a reply to justin's post.

[N4CER1]

There is a 56.96% chance an overcard will come on the flop if you hold JJ not counting it might come on the turn or river....You have to get a good flop or just muck JJ after the flop......IMO

[The Dude]

I'll tell you what. We'll set up a game. You and me heads up. I'll take that worthless hand every time, and you can have your described better hands (KQ, 66, etc.) every time. This way, not only is my hand WORTHLESS, but you even KNOW what it is every time. We'll play NL, you name the place. PM me when you want to play. You set the stakes.

[CrackerZack]

Twice in a month. You're en fuego. I thought that was him but 10 posts seemed to small. But he did get some nice responses for that idiot Redhotman in his alter ego. Lovely.

[N4CER1]

Its super player.....Look out...LOL LOL LOL

[joker122]

Ghostbuster, weren't you the one who chastized this entire forum for playing poker only a few months ago? Glad to see you back.

Anyways, I don't really see how you can argue with math. Well, actually you can't, but you do anyway. JJ is a favorite to even AKs. You make the point that AK, AQ and such won't pay you off if the flop doesn't hit them. That's not always true, especially at low limits. I've found that most players have a very tough time getting away from an AK or AQ when rags flop, and will hang around untill the river to see if they catch. Moreover, many of them will call through the river because they think they still have the best hand. Also, you're going to take these players down to the felt with a board like A-K-J. Also, the not so outside chance (8:1 I think) of flopping a set adds a great deal to the intrinsic value of any pocket pair.

Maybe I'm biased, because after 6,000 hands JJ is my most profitable hand. (I think I call down to much with AA or KK when I'm obviously beaten). That's the other thing: it's easy to get away from. If you showed strength preflop and an overcard flops, and you are bet into, there is a %99.9 chance you are beaten. That's my take on JJ, but then again I am a lowly SS player.

[mosch]

oddly, pokertracker shows my top four are the ultimately predictable:
AA/KK/QQ/JJ.

I don't think I'm going to fold my fourth most profitable hand.

[Victor]

Do you ever play 1010 or 99? Do you have problems with these hands? Just pretend your JJ is one of these hands and you will probably save a lot of trouble. Truth is, JJ is a very profitable hand if played correctly, but, just like any other hand, if played poorly, it will be costly

[Schneids]

I was going to comment to you personally but the # '1 - 800- eat my ass' doesn't seem to work.

[luckycharms]

Sometimes I agree with our original poster. Of course, it's dead wrong, but I think the point he might (and that's giving him the benefit of the doubt) is that it's such an enticingly nice hand, but oftentimes doesn't take home the goods.

Best way to deal with it: treat it like TT

[Ruddiger]

jj is a lot better than 1010.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
oddly, pokertracker shows my top four are the ultimately predictable:
AA/KK/QQ/JJ.

I don't think I'm going to fold my fourth most profitable hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto here. Isn't the long run amazing? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[N4CER1]

Not really much difference.....% chance and overcard will hit the flop:

99 : 79.29%
TT : 69.47%
JJ : 56.96%
QQ : 41.43%
KK : 22.55%

So if you do not flop a set and there is like 5 or 6 players still in the hand...56.96% of the time an overcard will come on the flop and one of the players has the overcard so you are now beat...and now you are drawing up-hill.

It is all how you play the hand post flop....IMO

[Ruddiger]

you don't think 12.5% is a lot? I'll take that and not say they are almost the same hand, thanks

[bigpooch]

I would be happy if some of my opponents folded all of their
pocket Jacks! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Duke]

These stats are for an overcard hitting the flop, NOT an overcard hitting AND and opponent having one in their hand too. Or am I wrong, and these numbers do, in fact, represent that number.

The number of opponents will definitely change the chance of them having one of those cards in their hand, but also it will change the chance of one coming on the flop.

~D

[lefty rosen]

The ability to read hands on a tight table make JJ infintely more profitable, obviously on a whacko low limit table KK/AA can be trouble hands if a bunch of guys are willing to call you down with any draw they have.....

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
KK/AA can be trouble hands if a bunch of guys are willing to call you down with any draw they have.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but as long as you are favored against each caller individually, you're bets should be profitable as long as you don't pay them off too much when they make a hand. This is even more true when they are all drawing for the same cards.

[lefty rosen]

actually on the ace anything low limit tables most of the time turkeys are doing this all day..........

[DiamondDave]

N4CER1, maybe you're talking about 1-prob[JJ is an overpair on the river].

In fact, JJ is the smallest pocket pair that is a favorite (albeit a small one) to be an overpair on the flop.

[N4CER1]

These odds are that an overcard will hit the flop if you hold one of these pocket pairs....nothing else.....

[AJo Go All In]

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