What to do?

[JARID]

Hello all, I am new to the site and pretty fired up to have found these discussions. Moved up to 15-30 about two months ago and have been having a great deal of success, until yesterday(blood bath). This hand had me feeling particularly fishy.

15-30 hold em at Party Poker. Fairly new to the table with no real reads on anybody. I am in the small blind and get a pair of 6s. Everyone folds to a middle position player who raises. Remaining players fold to me and I call, but the BB makes it three bets to go. Raiser #1 only calls and I call.
Flop comes down QQ3, rainbow. I check, BB bets and MP raises. Action is on me...what should I do? Pre-flop and other post flop comments also welcome.

Thanks-
JB

[elysium]

hi jarid
my experience with internet poker is that it's a total rip-off. they are under investigation and i advise not to do business with them. take it from a pooh. stay out of internet poker games.

[JARID]

Thanks for the tip, it is duly noted. If you don't mind, humor me a pretend I was playing at the Bike, as I'm sure I will encounter this situation again.

Thanks-

[steeser]

I would fold it. The BB is representing a pretty good hand by raising from the blind, and then after he bets out on the flop, the original raiser is coming over the top. I have to figure you are up against at least an overpair here, and I don't want to chase a 2 outer. Plus, there is the chance that after you call, the BB will re-raise, so you could face 3-4 bets to see the turn card.

[astroglide]

fold. should have 3bet yourself preflop or folded.

[andyfox]

I would fold. Not only is there a good chance your hand it not good now, there's an even better chance that it won't be good by the river.

[Monkeyslacks]

3-bet or fold preflop. Get rid of the bb or get rid of the sixes.

[Gabe]

You absolutely cannot call here preflop. This hand should almost always be folded in this spot. If you were nearly 100% sure the BB would fold to two cold and you somehow knew that it was very unlikely for MP to have a pair, and unlikely to go beyond the flop, you might reraise.

As for after the flop, see andyfox’s reply.

[Zele]

I would almost always fold pre-flop. Against a real maniac or a player I have very good control over, I would 3-bet. I know I'm not the first to say this, but it deserves emphasis: calling is incorrect.

[JARID]

I agree with those who say that calling pre-flop was incorrect. I regreted being in the hand the way that I was.
My post flop actions seem to be with the general consensus, as I did fold. However, a few things ran through my head. Why would someone holding the Q on a rainbow flop raise with another yet to act. I considered that I might really have the best hand at this point. Calling was the worst of my options. Making it three to go would really tell me where I was at, but seemed a steep price to pay when I could be facing that over pair.
Anyway, much to my chagrin the BB called, two blanks came and the two proceeded to check it down to the river, both showing AKoff. Thanks for the feedback.

[WyattErb]

In a situation like this, calling is always a mistake! with ur position i would fold definitely! u have no position, and with a pair of sixes against 2 players....thats no good, because u normally need a 6 on the flop, i think the only option here is folding preflop....but if u really want to stay in, raise, so u might get heads up!

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
hi jarid
my experience with internet poker is that it's a total rip-off. they are under investigation and i advise not to do business with them. take it from a pooh. stay out of internet poker games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elysium,

He asked for your critique of a hand. He didn't ask for your psychotic ranting on the nature and/or validity of online poker.

Dan

P.S. Maybe I'll buy you a few towels to cry into with my online winnings.

[elysium]

hi jared
that's why occasionally from time to time i remind everyone that just because i might suggest a particular action in a given internet hand, that it isn't taken to mean that i endorse internet poker. if the day ever comes when internet poker operations are taken out of the back alleys of central america and regulated by over-seers appointed by elected representitives, i still could never be certain that my hole cards were face down and not face up.

there are so many hackers out there that the internet poker sites have to constantly take measures against them. if the game were honest and an honest player went on a hot streak, the site would necessarily have to check the system to be sure some hacker didn't break the latest code. the people checking the code are the same people who approve of the pot being pushed to the losing hand and if you complain about it don't allow you back on the site, and then literally steal your balance. they do things to deliberately get someone who loses too slowly to leave in anger so that they can then lock the person out of the site and keep his balance. if you play a decent game, these guys don't want you there. the internet poker sites are insulted if you play beyond a primitive level because they want people who lose quickly and consistantly; who can't tell the difference between that and a real game because they lose whether the game is rigged or not. they do not want players who can tell the difference. they only want players who say,"i have no problem with the poker site's cash-out process." only winners know that you can't cash-out. they don't want winners.

if someone reads and verifies my post through their own personal experience, but then continues throwing money hand over fist into a game like the one i'm describing, i will not accept responsibility for their participation. if i respond to a hand posted from an internet game and don't affix a warning label onto it, it's because i don't think that it's necessary for one person to continue to warn everyone else. at some point it becomes someone elses responsibility to propagate that warning or everyone ignore it. i don't care.

another 2+2 er and i were in a game that gave him a chance to see ol' elysium thrown out of the card-room before he would cave in to a threat. i mis-called my hand after playing 24 hrs. straight, and the player who later realized that he had won the pot, mucked face-down upon hearing my mis-call. the manager stepped in and instead of advising the other player that it was his responsibility to protect his hand, instead threatened me telling me that unless i reliquished the pot, i would not be allowed to play there anymore. my first instinct when responding to a threat is to find out exactly what the person who is threatening me wants me to do, and then exactly what he doesn't want. then of course, i do everything i can to make sure that i do exactly what he really doesn't want me to do. it's not enough to do what he doesn't want, you must do what he really doesn't want to sucessfully counter a threat. and what this floor manager really didn't want was for me to rack up the pot and the rest of my chips, cash-out, and then return and voluntarily do what i was going to do in the first place had there been a modicum of savoirfaire to the manager's request. on that day, i set a record for returning back to action at the table in the shortest time with the friendliest reception. someone else returned sooner i heard, but not invitedly. i was invited back to my same seat. if you think that is easy, try getting thrown out and invited back in 15 min.; we're talking armed traditional one-way escort. and back again in 15 min.

anyway, that wasn't the reason for my story. what i was about to say was that this 2+2 er is in entertainment, and represents a well known celebrity who was with him that night. what had just occured brought up issues like 'how to counter-position someone who's positioning on you'. the manager came over to me and said, 'no elysium, i was just positioning on you before you voluntered to give your winnings to harvey.' that was after i said,'if it was the other way around, you would never have asked harvey to shift the pot over to me!' then harvey gave me a hundred dollars and i cooled down. no, it wasn't a broadway. i had a pair of jacks with the best kicker though. harvey surely beat them. he really had a smaller than broadway straight, harvey sometime later said, and he also had me beat. i agreed, and harvey then went and got the manager.

but harvey has a speech defect, and when harvey repeated what i had said, the manager heard it like this, "i'm suppose to know what YOU had? I should trust YOU? did you ACCIDENTLY muck face down? may you regret the DAY this pot is given to YOU. don't YOU think that I will give YOU this pot. you WILL NEVER see the day. i want the MANAGER involved in this. he's GOT nothing BETTER to do with his time. YOU take the pot? don't you THINK the MANAGER will agree with ME?".

after getting escorted out, i went to the hotel room where i was staying and called to find out why the manager was so angry. when he repeated back to me what harvey said, i told him no, no. i didn't say THAT. I said;

"i'm SUPPOSE to know what you had. i SHOULD trust you. did you accidently muck FACE DOWN? may you regret the day. this pot is GIVEN to you. DON'T YOU THINK i will give you this pot? you will never see the day i want the manager involved in this. he's got nothing BETTER TO DO with HIS TIME? YOU take the pot. don't you think the manager will AGREE with me?".

that's when the 2+2 er jumped up and said, "my client smokes marijuana!". the client turned to him and said, "don't tell elysium that! elysium has the biggest mouth in the whole world! do you want EVERYONE to know?".

but no, i didn't know. it was a compliment. 'gee', i thought, 'people listen to me!'; i mean, 'GEE, people listen to ME?'.

[Ulysses]

elysium,

FWIW, I have won lots of money at PartyPoker and cashed out successfully multiple times. I know many others here who have done the same.

What do you make of that?

[DiamondDave]

You're not getting good multiway action. So with a small pair like 66, you must either get it heads-up by re-raising (and hope the raiser has high cards and misses OR has an even wimpier pair and misses). Or you can fold, which would actually be much better.

I know the game is a struggle for the blinds, but they're small compared to the amount of action you'd have to put in to play the hand the way it should be played if you play it at all. And you're either a small favorite or a big underdog. And you won't know which it is.

[andyfox]

Well, I suspected your hand was either good or you would have spiked a 6, otherwise why post? The raiser probably wouldn't have a queen, you're right, but he might well have a pocket pair bigger than yours. And you've still got to consider how your going to play your small pair out of position for two more streets against two opponents.

[Vehn]

http://www.comedyshop.biz/image_manager/robin_williams.jpg

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http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/img/Marijuana_m536194.jpg

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elysium

[SA125]

Dude, that was good.

[ShortStack]

Hello all, I am new to the site and pretty fired up to have found these discussions. Moved up to 15-30 about two months ago and have been having a great deal of success, until yesterday(blood bath). This hand had me feeling particularly fishy.

15-30 hold em at Party Poker. Fairly new to the table with no real reads on anybody. I am in the small blind and get a pair of 6s. Everyone folds to a middle position player who raises. Remaining players fold to me and I call, but the BB makes it three bets to go. Raiser #1 only calls and I call.
Flop comes down QQ3, rainbow. I check, BB bets and MP raises. Action is on me...what should I do? Pre-flop and other post flop comments also welcome.

Thanks-
JB


I'm very new to the game but here are my two cents;

The pre-flop call was very marginal. I don't know where you draw the line, maybe 8,8 or 10,10. I'd love to hear from others where that line should be drawn, but one thing is for sure. If you are going to get involved with sub-optimal hands like these in a $15/$30 game, then you are counting on your superior playing skills on the flop, turn, and river.

And if you have those skills, then you already have a concept of how to play boards that contain a pair. Since you started with sixes, a board with a pair is likely to have a higher pair. Do you know how to play those? I don't. Hopefully that's temporary.

I give a lot of credit to those more experienced posters that like folding. It solves a lot of problems. But there is a good case for playing pre-flop just the way you did. But instead of checking after the flop you should bet. Cold call one raise but not two. If the odd card were a 7 or higher (higher than sixes) I'd be inclined to check and fold.

Now if BB or MP raise and you call for one bet, I'd be inclined to check and fold if the turn didn't help.

Why are there no bluffing possibilities here? All of the posters are respecting that pre-flop raise and who-knows-how-that QQ3-helps BB or MP, so wouldn't it be curious if SB ran a semi-bluff?

Ad I said earlier in this post, I am very new to the game. I'm hoping this site forum will be a great place to throw some ideas around.

[IlliniRyRy]

If you don't have a read on the players, you have to assume they're loose aggressive or loose passive because that's how most of the players are. By making this assumption, you're applying the same principles as any other decision making in poker with respect to odds. Consequently, if it were me, I fold here 100% of the time. You're either WAY behind or at best a very very marginal favorite preflop. It's too hard to play this hand, just forget about your blind. You'll get murdered being too overprotective of it.

[Piers]

Preflop my action is likely to depend on the big blind.

If he is far too loose, and will be defending with any two, or at least lots of cards lower than the six, but will be a bit tighter calling two bets, then I will call to invite him in with his 52o or T3o etc.

If he is more sensible and will be throwing complete junk then reraise to keep him out.

On the flop I think you have a clear fold. That is a really really clear fold.