KK

let's say you have a pair of KK's in an either loose or tight hold'em game, with 6 people to see the flop, let's say, you have an A rag rag flop, how often do you think you should even be in this hand, if you are in late position, with a bet and a couple of callers, should you fold, or pay to see the turn card?? What would you do?

1) You should raise before the flop with KK no matter how many opponents you have.

2) If a solid or average - good player bets then you should release the hand (only if you think he has the Ace for sure).

3) If you think someone has the Ace you should not continue unless the pot is about 20-23Small Bets (2 Outs)

4) With so many opponents you should fold about 90% of the time. If someone bets and there is a raise, then you can definately fold without hesitation. If there is a bet and several callers you can fold.

5) Offcourse if its A rag rag of one suit then you should call if u have a K (of that suit)..


I am not an expert but i have been in these situations many times and this is how i would have played them, I hope i helped.

The correct answer to this is, of course, "It Depends..."(TM)


Just to clarify the situation a bit, let's say you're on the button. You raise preflop, and so there's six way action for two bets = 12 sb in the pot. Now somebody bets into you, and gets a couple of callers ... if you just call, you are getting around 15 to 1 on a 22.5 to 1 shot. If you figure a set of kings will be enough to win the pot, can you collect another 8 sb = 4 big bets throughout the course of the hand? If yes, calling is +EV, if no, you fold.


Of course, meekly calling may not be your best option in this instance. Depending on your opponent (what would he bet into a preflop raiser with on this flop, and how aggressive is he likely to be in his subsequent play), it may be better to raise in late position, represent a big ace, and then keep pushing or shut down depending on the turn card and how your opponents react to your raise.


You also need to be considering board texture. A flop of Ah 8s 3d is very different from Ah 8s 7h. The first flop does not offer much in the way of draw possibilities, while the second flop is positively draw-rich. Consequently, a bet and callers on the first flop is far more likely to mean someone has the ace than a bet and callers on the second flop ... you may have people playing hearts, straight draws, etc. On the latter flop, if nobody is particularly aggressive, I'm far more likely to push my hand than on the first one.


Be sure to also consider your backdoor possibilities. In the example of Ah 8s 7h above, having the Kh in your hand is good for two reasons. First, if the turn is a heart, you often will have odds to draw to the flush. Second, it means that you don't have to worry about spiking your set while simultaneously making a flush for someone else.


All this is assuming that we're talking about a large multiway pot with you in late position. As the size of the pot gets smaller, you almost certainly will not be able to get the implied odds to draw for the set. If you are in early position, you often do not have as much information upon which to base your decision. In both of these cases, you will have to play more carefully, and be a bit more likely to give up on your hand. All the factors mentioned above should still be considered, however.


I will concede that playing KK when an A flops is sometimes a tricky proposition. Sometimes you will end up folding what turns out to be the best hand. If that happens, just remind yourself that you were making the "percentage play," and that in the long run, your choice was the correct one.


Hope this helps. Good luck at the tables,


Dave Shaw

On #4 you said you should fold 90% of the time. What does this mean? If its a spot where folding is correct you should be doing it every time. Sometimes you make loose calls to keep opponents from running over you but this isn't one of those times.


Kris

Keep it simple.


Unless the pot is very large or unless you have flush potential, you cannot be far off from very solid play be releasing this hand every time the flop comes A,rag,rag and you have a bet and callers in front.


I would never raise and represent a bigger A in a loose game as no one is laying down here or on the turn in they have an A.

I concur. I raise in this situation is never going to drive out anyone playing AX, and if the pots big enough to justify you playing, it won't drive out straight or flush draws, either. The only people it's likely to get out are the smaller pairs, who you'd often love to have calling (although, I guess if the pot is big enough for you to justify playing on, then it's big enough to justify them playing on so you don't mind them folding).

Hi dk,


I completely agree that in low limit games you will not get a person to release a weak ace. That's not why I would raise KK on this board.


In the situation "Power" describes, I'm last to act on a Axx flop, and I'm getting something like 15 to 1. If I figure I have correct implied odds to draw for a set, and my opponent is suitably unaggressive, I think a raise is the better play.


Imagine a hypothetical situation where the bettor has A8o, one caller has A5o, and other callers are on draws. If I raise last to act, they likely put me on a big ace (AK,AQ). This won't get them to fold, but I will probably get a free card on the turn, so I buy two cheap chances to spike.


Now, this is player dependent, and should not be done mindlessly. For this to work, you need a large pot (15 small bets or more), passive opponents (who are not going to 3 bet without a very strong hand), and the King of the appropriate suit if there is a flush draw on the board.


Bottom line: Situations can arise where KK, although undoubtably not the best hand, should be played aggressively on a Axx flop, even in a low limit game. These do not arise all that often, but they do occur and provide a nice supplement to your win rate ... if recognized and played correctly.


Cheers,


Dave Shaw

interesting food for thought, dave


i see where you are coming from, but i am not sure that you are correct in practice, even given your parameters


there are 15 sb's in the pot and you bet 2sb's


let's say you get two callers so there are now 21sb's in the pot


the odds to get trips in one card are 22.5 to 1 and you get two shots


so 21.5 times you lose 2 = -43sb's


1 time on the turned trips you win 19sb's + future bets, say 4 more sb's = 23sb's


on the rivered trips roughly 1 time you win 19sb's + bets, say 2sb's = 21sb's


therefore net profit = 1sb in 23.5 similar hands


= 0.04sb's per similar hand


put another way, if you are playing $2-$4 you are $86 in the hole before you win $88 back for a net profit of $2 on 23.5 similar hands, before any rake is deducted


however, bear in mind that if someone does bet the turn when you haven't tripped you have to fold at this point as you are only getting 23sb's to 2 for your 22.5 to 1 chance of river tripping


in conclusion,on the whole, including a few unmentioned factors, i believe it is a marginally bad bet to raise the flop in this situation - realistically, there is little chance of making enough profit to warrant the play


addendum


now for the bad news


to get to the mooted starting blocks of a $30 pot you have already put in at least $2 for each of the 23.5 hands we are discussing = - $47


so your total net loss would be in fact -$47 + $2 = -$45 for these 23.5 played hands


but maybe you can argue that it's better to lose only $45 than $47 so the move is a "winning" play /images/wink.gif

Odds are not my strong suit. However, if you get too shots at a K you have a roughly 9% chance hitting in 2 cards. Because of implied odds, I think you would only need to get 7:1 or 8:1 odds on the flop bet (assuming you were sure it would get you an additional card and you wouldn't get reraised).


The analysis is interesting, but again back to my original thought - Keep it simple. You can't be too far off from very solid strategy if you dump it everytime(under the given parameters).

"assuming you were sure it would get you an additional card"


assuming your 9% is correct (i haven't checked it) it is only correct if you definitely take both cards


which you might not


so it's a little irrelevant


and untrue if you don't take both cards


it's usually better to look at only the next card when calculating odds for making bets, each time


it's an easier calculation to do at the table too!

"1 time on the turned trips you win 19sb's + future bets, say 4 more sb's = 23sb's"


In the specified example, 6 players saw the flop. If you turn your trips, you are going to make a hell of a lot more than 4 more SB. Try your calculation using about 18 more SB (3 other players pay two bets on the turn and one on the river).

i thought about this but i'm afraid the calculations stuck in my craw and i couldn't get them out


i can't see how you can expect three players to pay two bets on the flop, then two on the turn, and then one on the river when they are being raised by a player who has presumably got a good table image and who has obviously got at least a pair of aces with a big kicker


ok, my figures might be a bit conservative if the three are total passive maniacs (if there is such a combination) but, conversely, you would have to factor in the odd extra total loss from runner runner straights and flushes, and trip aces


on reflection, in general, in a normal game, i am still of the folding school of thought - there seems little long-term gain in the raise-play and there are better situations to make a stand - this is almost the classic "get married to a hand and make excuses not to chuck it" scenario


however


in fact, i'm now beginning to think that raising is the worst thing to do - if you can't let the hand go and you want the three players to pay two bets on the turn and one on the river, by definition you need to get your trips on the turn - therefore, get to the turn as cheaply as possible by calling only, then fold if you don't get your trips


this way you would lose 22.5 x 1sb's = 22.5sb's


but - then you probably might actually win your one final pot of 36sb's or so


so, now i'm leaning towards trying for a cheap call on the flop, if in a very passive game


thank you very much for making me think about this again

I assumed this was the case, that you were just calling the flop, not raising.


However, if you raise the flop, you can also add in the potential hits on the river, since its quite possible you will be checked to on the turn and can take a free card to try and hit again. So, your implied odds need to be less, because your odds of making your hand are better?