Advice on how to play against those ignorant to basic strategy...

[eggzz]

I posted this in the Home Poker thread, but I think it is better suited to this forum:

Hello, I am new to this forum, but have been voraciously reading articles recently, and found through the timing of a home game gone horribly awry last night, that this should be my first post. I tend to ramble, so please bear with me.

A little about me, before I describe what happened. I've played home based poker primarily for the past ten years or so, all the stupid wild card games, which I hate, because there is no strategy involved, etc... So luckily, with the popularity of Hold Em over the past few years, I've been able to convince my friends to play primarily Hold Em when we get together. I've done much better, since switching to this format, as opposed to the King/Little drop, Criss/Cross, etc games we typically would play...

I play a typical tight style, and would like to be more aggressive, but I do have a passive side. I worry a lot about not having the nuts, even though many times, there is not a true "nut" hand, but I am getting better. I have improved my online play greatly through trial and error, and find when the ratio of me seeing flops is around 33%, I usually walk away from the session a winner. Previously, I was seeing 55-60% of the flops, and was not very successful doing that.

Last night was a good example of people that carry the wild card poker strategy to the extreme. The game was a conglomeration of a couple different betting strategies. The blinds were $2-4, but the bet range on the flop and turn was from $1-5 and you could bet up to $10 on the river. Most times, people bet the max of five dollars, and it was 50/50 between five on the river and ten on the river.

To say that these people were calling stations would be a vast understatement. They did not in any way respect a pre-flop raise, and would frequently just bet out into someone that raised pre-flop like it was nothing. They did not respect someone showing any type of strength. I found myself looking down at JJ once, and AKo on two occasions and telling myself, why would I want to raise this pre-flop, because it means absolutely nothing to them. Someone will call with J9o and suck out on me anyway.

Now I know that it is counterproductive to think that way, but let me give you a hand example. I had A/Qo in early position and just called the $4. Someone raised and I called. There were 7 of us playing and I think 6 saw the flop of Ace/Two/Ten rainbow. I bet out the max of five dollars and I think five people called. The turn produced a three of a different suit. I bet five. Three called. The turn produced a five. Now we have A/2/10/3/5.

I chuckled. I just knew that someone was holding a four. I bet out five dollars and the same two people called, and I lost to King/four offsuit. Are you kidding me? Is this something I should expect, or do I have a legitimate gripe about getting sucked out like this? This is how the night went.

I found myself so afraid of the garbage hands, that I ended up dropping a bundle ($180). When you see a flop of 667, you just know that someone is holding a six, because someone did, in fact, come in with 6/3 suited. One guy flatly told me that if his cards are suited, he plays to the flop, every single time. 7/2, 8/3, it doesn't matter.

Another time, I was in the big blind with 6/9 so I saw the flop, it was not raised. The flop came K/Q/9. I checked, someone bet five and I folded. I figured I was already beat, and the only way to win was with three nines. I didn't think that two pair would be strong, although I suppose I would have been confident with the two pair. I figured I would need another nine to win. I thought I only had two outs, but I suppose I had possibly five outs, so lets compromise and say I had 4 outs. With 47 unseen cards, the pot odds tell me I need 12-1 for me to call just one bet, so even with 5 people still in the pot, I'm supposed to fold the bottom pair with two juicy over cards and straight possibilities correct??

I would appreciate feedback on these two hand scenarios but more importantly, I would really appreciate feedback on what kind of strategy I need to undertake against this type of opponent. Do I need to really loosen it up, and see a lot of flops, and take a lot of chances on impractical drawing hands? It just goes against the grain on everything I have learned so far. I realize flexibility and adapting to game conditions is an important element to learn, but this game was bordering on the obscene. I don't want to hear "you shouldn't play in these types of games" because this is basically what I'm up against. If I want to have a home game, this is my opponent. They just don't understand the concept of laying hands down. I heard many times one player ask another if he was going to call a river bet. If one person was thinking about folding, he would call if the other guy said he was going to fold so the bettor "wouldn't be able to buy the pot". I see said the blind man. Unreal.

I will be playing in a tournament this Saturday and I'm really looking forward to it. Its a bunch of the guys I normally play with (not too many of these characters from last night), and they are decent players. It is $150 buy in, No Limit/No Rebuy, with about 25-30 players. Payouts to top 7. I feel that if I don't make it to the final table, I will be very disappointed. So I'm hoping that any input that I get from my travails last night will also help me in this upcoming game. (I realize this is switching from Limit to No Limit, so I may be asking too much. Maybe input on good limit strategy with people that aren't hip to basic game strategy, and also input on No Limit strategy in a tournament format against basically that same opponent).

Anyway, I enjoy this forum, there is great advice to be had, so I'm hoping I can get some in this vein. If I've left out something that you deem is important, please let me know. Thanks.

[Kenshin]

I have several comments regarding your post.

1. 33% of flop seen actually falls on the excessively loose side for a full ring game player. I truly wish everyone I played against stayed in for 33% of their hands.

2. In extremely loose games, top pairs decline precipitously in value. In your home game (especially if it is both extremely loose and agressive), I recommend you play hand such as AQ relatively conservatively.

3. I have never understood the "I wish I played against players with a semblance of strategy" argument. I intend no offense; however, if you can not beat players who have no clue what they are doing, you certainly cannot beat players with even a modicum of skill. Once again, I wish every single player in my games had absolutely no clue about poker. Expert players can beat good players consistently. I on the other hand derive most of my profits from weak players playing poorly.

Kenshin

[bigpooch]

33% of flops seen is tight? LOL! If you can't beat a loose
ring game just seeing between 15% and 20% of the flops, you
probably won't beat most LHE ring games! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[eggzz]

To Ken and Pooch, I believe the 33% figure I gave was faulty. I'm not sure where I came up with that number, but after thinking about how many flops I did see last night, I believe it was definitely lower than one in three. It was likely more like 20%. Many times the only time I saw the flop was in the BB. I apologize for the inaccuracy, as it definitely makes a difference.

I think a big reason why I did so poorly was because not only did I not react to this different type of game condition, one of the players was extremely drunk, and was making extremely erratic plays. On one hand he spent probably about $45 and turned over a queen and a nine, he hit nothing from the flop, turn or river. Unfortunately, since I refused to "loosen" up, I wasn't in those pots with him, only the ones he caught a miracle card on.

Thanks for the input,it does help.

[BookOfIcculus]

I have a home game that I play once a month amongst my good friends. They consider it BookofIcculus charity night. But we only play 10 dollar rebuy tournies. So its cheaper than going out to the bar for them. The more skilled you are than your opponents the more patient you should be. I fold almost all the the time, and I get to see my blinds for free all the time. I keep the pots small unless I have the nuts, and they can't be beat even on latter streets. Just grind out your lesser opponents. They will all laugh at you for not having as much fun as them(seeing every flop). But you'll take home 1st with ease.

[Al Schoonmaker]

First, if you were sure someone had a four, why did you bet?
Second, why didn't they raise?
Third, if you're in a game with players who call with inside straight draws, but don't raise when they make it, don't complain. They are the best possible opponents. Anyone who plays moderately intelligently MUST beat such a game. Let the terrible players suck out on you. It keeps them in the game and prevents their becoming tougher.
There are dozens of suggestions in HPFAP and my book on playing in loose games. The one on loose-passive players in my book seems closest to your situation.
If you just play solid poker and make the relatively minor adjustments suggested, you are CERTAIN to beat the gamebyou described.
Regards,
Al

[Cazz]

Sorry this is so long.
My advice may be a little different than most.

Warning:
This is only for a very loose/passive game only.
If you try this in a tight/aggressive game, you will
get sliced up. Also, some of this advice will
raise your variance as well as your EV.

Preflop:
Preflop, I recommend that you raise a lot from late position with any hand that

a) is likely to be the best hand a good percentage of the time and/or
b) plays very well multiway.

Category a) includes things like ATo, KQo
Category b) includes A9s, QJo, JTs, T9s
Hands that have a little of both are KJs, 99, etc.
You shouldn't raise EVERY time with the lower end hands, but raise a decent amount.

If they are going to play T7o and 84s, then get them to money in the pot early. The worse hands they play, the more you should raise.

In late position you can limp with hands like T9o, 76s, 33 when there are plenty of callers. No need to destroy your own implied odds by raising.

By raising you will be getting more money into the pot when you are a money favorite, plus it will make the hand much easier to play. The loose/passive players will "check to the raiser" nearly every hand. You can bet when you have the best hand, bet your strongest draws for value and check for a free card.

Don't get stubborn just because you put in the raise preflop. If the flop completely misses you and people are betting/calling, fold. Since the pot will be larger, you can sometimes call with less than premium draws, just know your players. If the super-calling-station lead bets, then 2 overcards is still too weak.

On the flop:
You need to be able to both a) raise for value, b) raise to close out players.
Example of raising for value---
Four limpers to you on the button. You raise w/
A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
The BB and the limpers call. The flop is
9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
The BB checks, the first limper bets, 2 calls to you.
You should raise. If you get 2 callers you are making money. Your spade draw is to the nuts, an Ace or a Ten might be good, and you can take a free card on the turn. Heck, you might even get A2 or T7 to fold to improve your odds. This works best when you are in late position, but when people sitting at the next table will call, check-raise for value as well. Now, if the guy on your immediate right bets into your draw-- just call. When you put $1 into the pot, you want to see 5 or 6 other dollars go in to match it.

Raising to close out players. You need to be willing to raise the player on your right if you have a vulnerable hand that might be the best hand right now. While this advice is true for many games, it is a must for loose/passive games.

Your hand
J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Flop
9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

If the guy on your right bets, it is probably raise or fold time. Do NOT call. If you let 5 other people see the turn, then you will lose if the turn or river is a spade, Ace, Queen, King, Ten, card that completes a straight, card that makes 2 pair for someone. You cannot get the flush or open-ended draws to fold, but make KQo and 76 either pay 2 bets or fold. If you get reraised, you know you are beat and can fold on the flop or turn. If you get it down to you and the original bettor, you can get your raise back by checking behind him on the turn or river. It will cost you the same amount of money, but you will not have 5 guys trying to run you (and/or the bettor) down.

[NaobisDad]

Same goes here, I have the nickname "fold'em". I play two nights a loose aggressive and loose passive. No one pays attention. It's fun and cheap. We play $10 buy in Pot limit hold'em with $.05/.1 blinds. I haven't really brought in big yet. Most of the time I win some small pots, mainly because the last two times I didn't really catch cards. Patience is a valuable good in these games.

[Girchuck]

Hi, I don't know why no one yet paid attention to the betting structure in your game.

Notice, how it is a spread limit game, and the turn is just as cheap as the flop. River however, is double the price.

That makes charging draws more difficult, and increases the implied odds of the turn draws. It also makes runner-runner draws a bit more valuable. The adjustments to this betting structure would be to raise more with your premium hands pre-flop, and slow-play very strong hands to the river a little more often. Medium-strong hands like top pair top kicker, overpair and most flopped two pairs and trips need to be played very aggresively on the flop, and the turn.
The important technique, that is denied to you by this betting structure is buying a free turn card by the flop raise. So, the draws should be played a lot more passively when the standard recommendation on this site.

I'll leave it to someone more experienced to address the issue of value betting on the river.

Good luck and Good skills.

[Duke]

There is absolutely no way that you can guarantee a win in one night against the player types that you are describing. There's never a way to guarantee a win in one session. When every hand goes to showdown, you really do have to show down the best hand.

When you're playing with players who can find the fold, you will still lose from time to time due to bad beats, or getting cold-decked, as i call it. Not being cheated... just flopping top pair top kicker with the nut flush draw, turning top 2 with the same nut draw, and losing to a rivered set or some such.

It really does happen from time to time and there is nothing you can do about it.

Even when you're a money favorite in a pot, you're not always a favorite to win it. Especially if it's 5-way. The long run is your only friend in the world of poker. Just don't play above your means and go broke... if you don't, then you'll come out a winner if you're a better player.

But only in the long run.

Yes, it's possible to have winning sessions without ever having a hand, but this is impossible if your opponents just don't fold. You can make more anyway in the long run by playing against these Party Poker-style uberfish. Just watch out for the setbacks along the way. The beats just happen more often against bad players.

But you should still win in the long run if you play better than them, especially without a rake. And win more than you would against thinking players.

A final note... seeing 30% of the flops is actually pretty fishy, and though you are giving up less pre-flop than your opponents because they see even more of them, you could get your results to be more often positive if you tightened up a reasonable amount.

I see 18% of flops in full games, and between 23-25% in short handed games, playing against the player types that you describe. And that's knowing full well that I'll be playing the hands better than my opponents would post-flop. Why not play every single hand I can show a profit with? Decrease my variance.

Anyhoo... good luck on your poker endeavor.

~D

[Duke]

Yes, there is strategy involved in all those wild-card games that you hate. Unless they're played absolutely blind, there are ways to increase your chances of winning, or decrease your losses when you do lose. It really isn't all luck.

Your belief that those games are 100% luck is akin to the belief that most people have regarding Hold'em, and Stud, and Omaha, or whatever.

~D

[ThaSaltCracka]

Eggz,
the best strategy against loose players is to tighten up, extremely. Don't get sucked in to there style of play, play your own game. Its simply not possible for you to get sucked out everytime your in a hand. Wait for good cards and when you hit your hand, bet, because it sounds like the will pay you off everytime.

Now if most of the hands you guys play have a lot of preflop callers, you may want to play suited and connected cards. These cards do well with lots of players. Your top pair looses value greatly when there are multiple callers.

[eggzz]

I want to thank everyone for their input, both here, and on the Home Poker thread. I hope to do better in the 25 man NL $150 buy in tournament that is tomorrow, the reason why I posted my question. I think I have learned the following that I will attempt to put in my arsenal for tomorrow:

- Although I mistakenly posted that I was playing tight and seeing 33% of the flops last week, I realize that was inaccurate, and also a contradictory statement. I will likely be looking to see about 20% of the flops, or less, especially in the early going, when everyone is getting a feel for the game. I find that I really excel when a game gets short handed, especially in the 3-4 player range. My goal will be to patiently grind out a slow profit to the midpoint of the game.

I will also look to limp in to see cheap flops with my suited connectors, and try to fold my Q/10o and like type hands, unless I can see them cheaply and in position.

I will raise in the neighborhood of 4x the BB when I have a hand, and attempt to make people pay for the cards they are drawing for to beat me. I'll have to mix up my play if I feel that people see me as someone that won't mix it up without a premium premium hand.

I would like to counter Duke's claim that the home wild card games do take a lot of skill and strategy. Let me give you two examples of some of our popular home games.

Follow the queen, and 2/3rds. I'm sure most people are familiar with follow the queen. There is no strategy in this game, especially if you play that the queen of spades kills, like we do. That way, absolutely no one ever holds, and if there are 7 in the game, 7 show down every single time. I ask where the skill is there?

2/3rds (I realize this game does not have a wild card) is basically 7 card stud, but also high spade and low spade in the hole count as a win. You need two of the three winners to claim the pot. Therefore, you end up playing multiple hands with re anteing until someone wins. Again, no strategy. Many of our games follow these formats. I try to deal Black Rock every time I deal, and if someone wants to know a solid poker game you can play with the fellas that not only benefits the dealer, but has bluffing and is truly poker at its finest, let me know.

Thanks again for all the input. I'll lay a post down on the ups and downs of the tourney, and we'll see how I do.