First post, and a "bluff" question

Hello all. I've been reading the board here for a while, and playing poker for a few years, but only got serious about it about a year ago. The hand below is actually from an online site (I don't know whether I should be posting this in the internet forum or not - they don't seem to post a lot of hand histories there, and it _is_ small-stakes...). Anyway, I just moved up to 2-4 limits and thought I'd ask about this hand, as another player thought I was an idiot for playing it this way. Was he right?


I'm in the big blind with Q6o, there are two callers from MP, button calls, SB calls, I check.


Flop comes 7-7-6 rainbow.

I bet out, first MP player (aggressive so far in the game) calls, everyone else folds.


Turn: 7-7-6-J, no flush possible.

I check, he bets, I raise to try to represent a 7. (Comments on this?) He calls.


River is a Q, an unexpected surprise for me, although after his call I had planned on betting the river anyway. I bet, he calls and loses with KJo.


A player to my right says "Nice raise on the turn, you had two outs. Moron." Even though he's blatantly wrong about my "outs", was I a moron anyway? If the river wasn't a Q or 6, is the (semi)bluff a bad idea here? Thanks for any comments.


~Magic Man

Magic man,


I like your flop bet, you very well may be ahead here, and anybody without a 7 might fold and let you have a small pot right now.


Once you bet the flop, and are called, you are either ahead, or way behind. I don't really like the checkraise after you bet out. I think that at this point anybody who has anything is going to call you to the river. Even though he fell behind, he did call the river, so a bluff wasn't going to win you the pot. If you are going to make that checkraise play when bet into, you may as well bet the turn, it gives you one more chance to win, and anybody with just a pair cant raise with that board, so you will probably get to see the river for one big bet.


The guy who called you a moron is the moron. If he's going to call names for making a play with your 5-outer, he should probably also call the guy who called your flop bet a moron, because he was on at best a 6 outer.


Also, if he is playing poker for the money, he shouldn't be calling anybody a moron, unless he means it as a term of endearment. And then he probably should do it under his breath in his own living room.


good luck

Bob T.

nice post...he made a tuff call on your checkraise...then you sucked a 3 outer...wonder if you have a tell or if this was a guy who will not lay down (poor candidate for bluff)...i do not consider a one card 3-0uter to be a semi-bluff..it is a bluff..jmho..gl..hope you keep posting..

He had 5 outs, not 3.


I like the play. If you only make this play with a 6 it is too easy for others to play correctly against you. Heads up in this situation is a reasonable spot. I think KJ made a poor call actually.

I'm not sure, but isn't opening with KJo pretty awfull as well?


Allan

I'm curious how so many people can come up with different figures for the number of "outs" the original poster had. I see how those saying he had two can be right -- he needs one of two remaining 6 (assuming nobody already had the 66) to hit a full house and only have 77 and JJ to fear. If you are counting the three available Q to get to five outs, aren't you expecting him to win with two pair if a Q hits when someone could have a 7 or JJ and already have him beat? Am I missing something here? I'm still trying to get a handle on all of this, so any constructive responses will be welcomed.

"aren't you expecting him to win with two pair if a Q hits when someone could have a 7 or JJ and already have him beat"


yes, you are expecting to win with your two pair if you say you have five outs


if you don't expect to win with two pair then you tell yourself you have two outs


obviously until you see the opponent's hand after it's all over, and it doesn't matter any more, you don't know how many outs you did actually have


it is a matter of your guessing what hand he has by the clues he gives and then counting the ways you think you can beat him if your guess is right


it is just that, a guess, albeit, you hope, an educated guess


if he had played differently, say by reraising, then you probably would have guessed you only had two outs and adjusted your play accordingly

I must be missing something...


What exactly are you assuming he has if you say you only have 2 ours? If he has a 7, you have *zero* outs. There is no card in the deck that can win it for you on the River.


The only way to have 2 outs after the turn is if you assume he has exactly AA,KK,QQ, or QJ -- not too likely since there was no raise pre-flop and he called on the flop. If he has a lower pkt pair, you have 5 outs. If he has a J, you still have 5 outs. If he has x6, you are either ahead or have 3 outs.


Anyone that thinks a 6 on the river is an out if I have a seven, let's play tonight.

The assumption I make here is that he would've raised on the flop or reraised the turn if he had a 7. Therefore I assume I have 5 outs, and that two pair will win. The number of outs wasn't really important anyway - I'm certainly not getting odds for 5 outs - as it was mainly a bluff play.


~Magic Man

duh! /images/frown.gif


yes, of course you are right, thank you


i was just trying to explain outs to ftp and wasn't thinking that the two supposed outs of the sixes would give a 7 a higher full house


a salutary lesson that you have to cover every angle before you post in front of experts /images/smile.gif