eggzz
02-16-2004, 08:50 PM
Hello, I am new to this forum, but have been voraciously reading articles recently, and found through the timing of a home game gone horribly awry last night, that this should be my first post. I tend to ramble, so please bear with me.
A little about me, before I describe what happened. I've played home based poker primarily for the past ten years or so, all the stupid wild card games, which I hate, because there is no strategy involved, etc... So luckily, with the popularity of Hold Em over the past few years, I've been able to convince my friends to play primarily Hold Em when we get together. I've done much better, since switching to this format, as opposed to the King/Little drop, Criss/Cross, etc games we typically would play...
I play a typical tight style, and would like to be more aggressive, but I do have a passive side. I worry a lot about not having the nuts, even though many times, there is not a true "nut" hand, but I am getting better. I have improved my online play greatly through trial and error, and find when the ratio of me seeing flops is around 33%, I usually walk away from the session a winner. Previously, I was seeing 55-60% of the flops, and was not very successful doing that.
Last night was a good example of people that carry the wild card poker strategy to the extreme. The game was a conglomeration of a couple different betting strategies. The blinds were $2-4, but the bet range on the flop and turn was from $1-5 and you could bet up to $10 on the river. Most times, people bet the max of five dollars, and it was 50/50 between five on the river and ten on the river.
To say that these people were calling stations would be a vast understatement. They did not in any way respect a pre-flop raise, and would frequently just bet out into someone that raised pre-flop like it was nothing. They did not respect someone showing any type of strength. I found myself looking down at JJ once, and AKo on two occasions and telling myself, why would I want to raise this pre-flop, because it means absolutely nothing to them. Someone will call with J9o and suck out on me anyway.
Now I know that it is counterproductive to think that way, but let me give you a hand example. I had A/Qo in early position and just called the $4. Someone raised and I called. There were 7 of us playing and I think 6 saw the flop of Ace/Two/Ten rainbow. I bet out the max of five dollars and I think five people called. The turn produced a three of a different suit. I bet five. Three called. The turn produced a five. Now we have A/2/10/3/5.
I chuckled. I just knew that someone was holding a four. I bet out five dollars and the same two people called, and I lost to King/four offsuit. Are you kidding me? Is this something I should expect, or do I have a legitimate gripe about getting sucked out like this? This is how the night went.
I found myself so afraid of the garbage hands, that I ended up dropping a bundle ($180). When you see a flop of 667, you just know that someone is holding a six, because someone did, in fact, come in with 6/3 suited. One guy flatly told me that if his cards are suited, he plays to the flop, every single time. 7/2, 8/3, it doesn't matter.
Another time, I was in the big blind with 6/9 so I saw the flop, it was not raised. The flop came K/Q/9. I checked, someone bet five and I folded. I figured I was already beat, and the only way to win was with three nines. I didn't think that two pair would be strong, although I suppose I would have been confident with the two pair. I figured I would need another nine to win. I thought I only had two outs, but I suppose I had possibly five outs, so lets compromise and say I had 4 outs. With 47 unseen cards, the pot odds tell me I need 12-1 for me to call just one bet, so even with 5 people still in the pot, I'm supposed to fold the bottom pair with two juicy over cards and straight possibilities correct??
I would appreciate feedback on these two hand scenarios but more importantly, I would really appreciate feedback on what kind of strategy I need to undertake against this type of opponent. Do I need to really loosen it up, and see a lot of flops, and take a lot of chances on impractical drawing hands? It just goes against the grain on everything I have learned so far. I realize flexibility and adapting to game conditions is an important element to learn, but this game was bordering on the obscene. I don't want to hear "you shouldn't play in these types of games" because this is basically what I'm up against. If I want to have a home game, this is my opponent. They just don't understand the concept of laying hands down. I heard many times one player ask another if he was going to call a river bet. If one person was thinking about folding, he would call if the other guy said he was going to fold so the bettor "wouldn't be able to buy the pot". I see said the blind man. Unreal.
I will be playing in a tournament this Saturday and I'm really looking forward to it. Its a bunch of the guys I normally play with (not too many of these characters from last night), and they are decent players. It is $150 buy in, No Limit/No Rebuy, with about 25-30 players. Payouts to top 7. I feel that if I don't make it to the final table, I will be very disappointed. So I'm hoping that any input that I get from my travails last night will also help me in this upcoming game. (I realize this is switching from Limit to No Limit, so I may be asking too much. Maybe input on good limit strategy with people that aren't hip to basic game strategy, and also input on No Limit strategy in a tournament format against basically that same opponent).
Anyway, I enjoy this forum, there is great advice to be had, so I'm hoping I can get some in this vein. If I've left out something that you deem is important, please let me know. Thanks.
A little about me, before I describe what happened. I've played home based poker primarily for the past ten years or so, all the stupid wild card games, which I hate, because there is no strategy involved, etc... So luckily, with the popularity of Hold Em over the past few years, I've been able to convince my friends to play primarily Hold Em when we get together. I've done much better, since switching to this format, as opposed to the King/Little drop, Criss/Cross, etc games we typically would play...
I play a typical tight style, and would like to be more aggressive, but I do have a passive side. I worry a lot about not having the nuts, even though many times, there is not a true "nut" hand, but I am getting better. I have improved my online play greatly through trial and error, and find when the ratio of me seeing flops is around 33%, I usually walk away from the session a winner. Previously, I was seeing 55-60% of the flops, and was not very successful doing that.
Last night was a good example of people that carry the wild card poker strategy to the extreme. The game was a conglomeration of a couple different betting strategies. The blinds were $2-4, but the bet range on the flop and turn was from $1-5 and you could bet up to $10 on the river. Most times, people bet the max of five dollars, and it was 50/50 between five on the river and ten on the river.
To say that these people were calling stations would be a vast understatement. They did not in any way respect a pre-flop raise, and would frequently just bet out into someone that raised pre-flop like it was nothing. They did not respect someone showing any type of strength. I found myself looking down at JJ once, and AKo on two occasions and telling myself, why would I want to raise this pre-flop, because it means absolutely nothing to them. Someone will call with J9o and suck out on me anyway.
Now I know that it is counterproductive to think that way, but let me give you a hand example. I had A/Qo in early position and just called the $4. Someone raised and I called. There were 7 of us playing and I think 6 saw the flop of Ace/Two/Ten rainbow. I bet out the max of five dollars and I think five people called. The turn produced a three of a different suit. I bet five. Three called. The turn produced a five. Now we have A/2/10/3/5.
I chuckled. I just knew that someone was holding a four. I bet out five dollars and the same two people called, and I lost to King/four offsuit. Are you kidding me? Is this something I should expect, or do I have a legitimate gripe about getting sucked out like this? This is how the night went.
I found myself so afraid of the garbage hands, that I ended up dropping a bundle ($180). When you see a flop of 667, you just know that someone is holding a six, because someone did, in fact, come in with 6/3 suited. One guy flatly told me that if his cards are suited, he plays to the flop, every single time. 7/2, 8/3, it doesn't matter.
Another time, I was in the big blind with 6/9 so I saw the flop, it was not raised. The flop came K/Q/9. I checked, someone bet five and I folded. I figured I was already beat, and the only way to win was with three nines. I didn't think that two pair would be strong, although I suppose I would have been confident with the two pair. I figured I would need another nine to win. I thought I only had two outs, but I suppose I had possibly five outs, so lets compromise and say I had 4 outs. With 47 unseen cards, the pot odds tell me I need 12-1 for me to call just one bet, so even with 5 people still in the pot, I'm supposed to fold the bottom pair with two juicy over cards and straight possibilities correct??
I would appreciate feedback on these two hand scenarios but more importantly, I would really appreciate feedback on what kind of strategy I need to undertake against this type of opponent. Do I need to really loosen it up, and see a lot of flops, and take a lot of chances on impractical drawing hands? It just goes against the grain on everything I have learned so far. I realize flexibility and adapting to game conditions is an important element to learn, but this game was bordering on the obscene. I don't want to hear "you shouldn't play in these types of games" because this is basically what I'm up against. If I want to have a home game, this is my opponent. They just don't understand the concept of laying hands down. I heard many times one player ask another if he was going to call a river bet. If one person was thinking about folding, he would call if the other guy said he was going to fold so the bettor "wouldn't be able to buy the pot". I see said the blind man. Unreal.
I will be playing in a tournament this Saturday and I'm really looking forward to it. Its a bunch of the guys I normally play with (not too many of these characters from last night), and they are decent players. It is $150 buy in, No Limit/No Rebuy, with about 25-30 players. Payouts to top 7. I feel that if I don't make it to the final table, I will be very disappointed. So I'm hoping that any input that I get from my travails last night will also help me in this upcoming game. (I realize this is switching from Limit to No Limit, so I may be asking too much. Maybe input on good limit strategy with people that aren't hip to basic game strategy, and also input on No Limit strategy in a tournament format against basically that same opponent).
Anyway, I enjoy this forum, there is great advice to be had, so I'm hoping I can get some in this vein. If I've left out something that you deem is important, please let me know. Thanks.