Is my basic SNG strategy alright? (this is pretty long, sorry)

[blackaces13]

Here are my general guidelines when I play in the often wild $6 SNG's on Party. I'm sure its not optimal and I know its not common so I'd like to hear what people think.

Early:
When the blinds are small, unless there are a couple of true maniacs in I will limp with A LOT of hands (all suited connectors, any connectors above 78, any 2 cards above 10, Qxs in late postion, etc.) because I know that if I hit 2 pair or better I can probably double-up. Its funny but most of the time I find that these players are extremely loose/passive pre-flop but they will not be bullied after the flop, even if they only have a small part of it, they will usually pay you off handsomely. If there are a couple of trigger happy maniacs in I let them kill each other off early or let someone with a big pocket pair take them out.

I play hands like KT and KJ but if all I flop is a K and someone raises my bet or bets big in front of me I'm gone. I play very timidly with top pair early on. This is true even if I had tptk with 3 or more opponents, I try to end it early and if anyone raises me I bow out even if I think I was more than a 50% favorite to win the pot. I hate to bust out early, these things pay top 3 they aren't satelites.

Middle stage:

Basically I do everything I can to double up on a weak player early. I'm trying to get my hands on T2000 (of 8000 total) or more by the 3rd level. If I can't then I just wait to take a stand and hope to get lucky as my chips are usually very low, basically my strategy goes out the window if I can't get a hold of some chips early. However, and this is where I think many will disagree, if I do manage to get to the T2000+ level, or even significantly higher, I TIGHTEN UP CONSIDERABLY. In fact, I almost completely stop playing hands and I'm not aggressive at all. I'll call on the button with AKs and about the only other hands I play are pocket A's-J's and I may fold the J's if there's a riase in. I also will usually just call with Jacks if I have more than 1 opponent. I play ultra weak-tight and even though I know that's not a favorable label, I think it affords me the greatest chance of getting paid.

My entire focus now is just on staying in to make the final 3, that's it, I don't even care if I get there on the shortstack. That's fine, I'll take my chances when I get there.

Usually at this point there will be 5 or 6 players left and the blinds will be climbing so that some big confrontations come up, especially with the short stacks. I try to stay out of it as much as I can, hope they kill each other off as efficiently as possible (even if it gives 1 player a huge stack, I'd rather that than to see the money spread evenly for a long time), and check/fold my way into the final 3. Then I get super-aggressive and take my shot at it.

Even if I am a tremendous chip-leader with T4500, I still play almost no hands in the middle of a SNG. I actually look at folding decent hands here as my luxury for having so many chips.

Late Stages:

Provided I can check my way into the final 3 with a medium to small stack I completely change gears. The other 2 players figure me for the biggest rock they've ever seen because I may have literally folded 30 hands in a row. Also, now the blinds are so big that even if I used my stack as a weapn earlier with good results I'D STILL HAVE A GOOD CHANCE OF ONE HAND CRIPPLING ME. That's why I just like to cruise into the final 3 where it can be a crapshoot anyway, so I don't mind a shortstack. For the rest of the tourny I'm sort of a maniac unless I win a couple of huge pots in which case I'll go back into cruise control until its head-up. I still wait for good hands but I raise every pot I enter and I bet every flop I see. I also am willing to push all-in with any hand I decide to play when the blinds are so inflated, and I do it frequently.

Those are my 3 very distinct gears, and I'm sure this is not how most people play. I don't play to accumulate chips throughout. I play to get enough early to allow myself to check and fold my way into the final 3 (or go all-in with rockets or cowboys) then I take the gloves off and hope to get lucky. Make sense?

[Bluff1]

Early:
When the blinds are small, unless there are a couple of true maniacs in I will limp with A LOT of hands (all suited connectors, any connectors above 78, any 2 cards above 10, Qxs in late postion, etc.)

I think that is a good way to burn off chips your better off waiting for good hands and playing them strongly imo

I play hands like KT and KJ

These are pretty big trap hands and I would avoid them like the plague

In fact, I almost completely stop playing hands and I'm not aggressive at all.

When you are average or big stack its important to steal and play your good hands strongly or else you will get a lot more third place finishes instead of first

Lastly I want to say you shouldn't be check folding your way into the final 3. If your fournate enough to have a big stack take advantage of it and make steals that way you remain a big stack. The only thing I could see in your strategy that I like is if you raise and another huge stack moves your all in or reraises then you can get super tight. Otherwise, imo you are just costing yourself money trying to make it to the final 3. Also if your are talking about the 5 + 1 sng at party you would be better off avoiding them. It has been posted on here that 20% is just to high of a rake. Hope this helps.

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
When the blinds are small, unless there are a couple of true maniacs in I will limp with A LOT of hands (all suited connectors, any connectors above 78, any 2 cards above 10, Qxs in late postion, etc.) because I know that if I hit 2 pair or better I can probably double-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will usually avoid saying anything against this type of play on SNG's because it can sometimes work. However, this will not be a consistent winner for you. Limping when the blinds are small is a common misperception of the low limit Party Player. Playing each hand for value is a better option. Take into account position and relative stack sizes first. My own personal opinion is that I would rather be patient and play only premium or at least high quality hands early in the tournament.

[ QUOTE ]
I play hands like KT and KJ but if all I flop is a K and someone raises my bet or bets big in front of me I'm gone. I play very timidly with top pair early on. This is true even if I had tptk with 3 or more opponents, I try to end it early and if anyone raises me I bow out even if I think I was more than a 50% favorite to win the pot. I hate to bust out early, these things pay top 3 they aren't satelites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you state in your first paragraph that you like to play Qx etc but when you hit top pair you fold??? This is confusing to me. If you are going to play loose, why do you tighten up post flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Basically I do everything I can to double up on a weak player early. I'm trying to get my hands on T2000 (of 8000 total) or more by the 3rd level. If I can't then I just wait to take a stand and hope to get lucky as my chips are usually very low, basically my strategy goes out the window if I can't get a hold of some chips early.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a weak concept and will result in your placing 3rd (or lower) much more often than 1st.

[ QUOTE ]
if I do manage to get to the T2000+ level, or even significantly higher, I TIGHTEN UP CONSIDERABLY. In fact, I almost completely stop playing hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a weak concept. You are playing not to lose. This goes against my concept of a winning player. A winning player should be playing to win. This is the very point where I am loosening up some in order to steal blinds and make bets based on value. Aggressiveness at this point will result in many more higher finishes. If you ever progress past the $5 tournies you will need to change this or you will be back fast.

[ QUOTE ]
I try to stay out of it as much as I can, hope they kill each other off as efficiently as possible (even if it gives 1 player a huge stack, I'd rather that than to see the money spread evenly for a long time), and check/fold my way into the final 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not say this strongly enough for any newbie players out here. DO NOT PLAY THIS WAY This is totally wrong and will result in a gradual loss of bankroll. Playing solid poker will result in a positive growth. This is not solid poker. This is just my opinion but this is just wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I just like to cruise into the final 3 where it can be a crapshoot anyway, so I don't mind a shortstack. For the rest of the tourny I'm sort of a maniac unless I win a couple of huge pots in which case I'll go back into cruise control until its head-up. I still wait for good hands but I raise every pot I enter and I bet every flop I see. I also am willing to push all-in with any hand I decide to play when the blinds are so inflated, and I do it frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same comment as above. No need to expand.

I really didn't start out to tear this totally apart. It took you time and energy to post it and thank you. However, it is my opinion that these types of play in SNG's will never let you successfully move up in limits. You really need to take a look at the posts of those people who are very successful on this forum and read the essays and books by professionals. This style of play will sometimes work on a limited basis on a totally wild $5 table on Party but would not be successful at all at any other limit or on any other site.

One more thing...why are you paying the inflated rake at the $5 table when the $10 is the same?

[CrisBrown]

Hi blackaces,

[ QUOTE ]
When the blinds are small, unless there are a couple of true maniacs in I will limp with A LOT of hands (all suited connectors, any connectors above 78, any 2 cards above 10, Qxs in late postion, etc.) because I know that if I hit 2 pair or better I can probably double-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being a bit indiscriminate here. The rule for a loose-passive table is that you tighten up A LOT on big pairs and big cards (slowplay the big pairs, dump the big cards, as they don't play well multi-way), and loosen up A LITTLE on strong drawing hands (suited connectors, small and middle pairs). That means JJ goes in the muck unless you can get in cheaply, and I wouldn't get all-in pre-flop with less than AA (or KK if you're sure it'll be heads-up). And with those strong drawing hands, you want to have position, so you know what's happening ahead of you before you have to act.

[ QUOTE ]
I play hands like KT and KJ but if all I flop is a K and someone raises my bet or bets big in front of me I'm gone. I play very timidly with top pair early on. This is true even if I had tptk with 3 or more opponents, I try to end it early and if anyone raises me I bow out even if I think I was more than a 50% favorite to win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, IMO, the wrong way to play a loose-passive table. Big cards (KJ, KT) don't play well in multi-way pots, so I would avoid them. Also, the general rule at a loose table is that you tighten up pre-flop, but aggressively bet for value post-flop. If you're tighter than the others at the table, you will (on average) have a better hand, and since they're playing loose they'll often call your value bets with inferior hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically I do everything I can to double up on a weak player early. I'm trying to get my hands on T2000 (of 8000 total) or more by the 3rd level. If I can't then I just wait to take a stand and hope to get lucky as my chips are usually very low, basically my strategy goes out the window if I can't get a hold of some chips early.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you're really saying here is that you think the other players at the table are better than you are, so you need a big early lead in order to have a chance. If that is truly how you feel, then you need to work on your player- and hand-reading skills, so you're no longer quite so dependent on getting a big early lead.

[ QUOTE ]
However, and this is where I think many will disagree, if I do manage to get to the T2000+ level, or even significantly higher, I TIGHTEN UP CONSIDERABLY. In fact, I almost completely stop playing hands and I'm not aggressive at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also probably a mistake. With a big lead, your strategy shifts to trying to take uncontested pots. Chips are power, and you're forfeiting that power by sitting on them. That doesn't mean you get loosey-goosey-crazy, but you do need to stay mentally involved. What's more, since you're playing SO tight, you're more likely to overplay the hands you do play, and lose a huge pot.

With a big stack here, I'm looking for steal opportunities, i.e.: first into the pot, with a raise, on a decent hand if I get called. If I get reraised, I'll fold unless I really have the goods. But I'm looking to take those blinds, and force my opponents to take bigger risks to play with me.

[ QUOTE ]
For the rest of the tourny I'm sort of a maniac unless I win a couple of huge pots in which case I'll go back into cruise control until its head-up. I still wait for good hands but I raise every pot I enter and I bet every flop I see. I also am willing to push all-in with any hand I decide to play when the blinds are so inflated, and I do it frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually the one part I semi-agree with. Late in a SNG, when you're already in the money and the blinds are big, you want to be the aggressor. You don't want to be calling all-in bets. You want to be the one forcing other players to move all-in in order to play any pot with you. So I think most of what you say in this part is basically correct.

Good luck,

Cris

[Blanton13]

I've been playing the low limit SNG's almost exclusivly and I played a lot like you are. But I found that while I'd get on winning streaks here and there, over all I was losing.

While I'm far from a good player, I'd say far from even a decent player...I will say that I've found that playing YOUR game is important. Some people like playing pocket pairs, others like suited connectors. Others just like cards with the A on them. It doesn't really matter, just play your game.

As the game wears on you'll see how others are playing. Chances are a maniac will be the chip leader by the 15th or 20th hand, while the stronger player will be near the middle of the pack. Stack size does not equal ability.

Allow for flexibilty in your play. Guidlines are nice to fall back on, but not to grind with. That's a trap I fall into more often then not.

Good luck.

[DarkKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
"While I'm far from a good player, I'd say far from even a decent player...I will say that I've found that playing YOUR game is important."

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very important to me that weaker players play "THEIR" game. If they we're to play "MY" game, it would be much harder for me to beat them.

As for guideline, I don't have guidelines....Guidelines are wishy-washy. I have hard and fast rules that I live and die by. Without rules its too easy to convinvce yourself to make an exception to your plan.

For example, (in Limit)
I'm in the BB,
SB limps 1st in and then check to me I'm going to bet with any 2 cards 100% of the time. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are if I flopped a monster, SB is a tricky player, or I perceive there is no chance SB will fold and I've got nothing.

Without rules, I'd often convince myself to check with eg 72o and a board of K96. Sb has offered you the pot here - its your responibility to take it.


DK

[X-Calibre]

No offense, but i think i play my SNG almost exactly opposite of you. I don't play anything in the beginning, in fact, i lose more sitngos when i get good cards in the beginning then when i don't.

If i make it to 6 players with decent money then I'm on the buy pot mode, but my style is very flexible at this point given the table and my current "image" at it.

down to 3, my strategy is all based on my stack size and yours and is different from table to table. Though this is where we agree in one respect, i will enter no pot without raising.

[blackaces13]

Stage (and others) don't worry about ripping my whole style, any logical opinion is very much appreciated and in fact I like the negative ones much more. But now I'd like to try to explain my reasoning (as breifly as I can) on a few key things:

Limping with KJ and KT type hands:

I only do this in late position with a lot of 15 unit limpers in and I would NEVER call a raise. IMO, the implied odds here are simply astronomical if I catch top 2-pair, trips, a straight, or god willing, a full house, I can easily double or even triple up here because as I've said it is my belief that the typical $6 SNG player likes to limp preflop but WILL NOT BE BULLIED after that. They love to mix it up of they get a piece of that flop. So I think its well worth it to invest 15 little units to win 800 or more. Also, if I flop a King with KJ and there was no raise I can ssume I'm winning and try to win a medium pot. Wouldn't most players raise with AK or KQ? I think even bad ones do so I don't think its such a big risk to play a KJ if no one has raised, but again I'll never jeopardize a lot of my chips with a single pair. If someone gets a little too froggy with me then they get the pot.

Playing 5+1's instead of 10+1's:

I understand that the "rake" here is twice as high but, ironically, I think a lot of that is made up by just that fact. Any knowledgable player who plays a lot of SNG's will spring for the $11 game with the better payouts. So I think the typical $6 player is just there to take a swing and have fun in a tourny, he's not a serious player and probably very apt to call all-ins with MUCH less than the nuts, he wants action. I also have a very limited bankroll and I too think these tournies are much more fun than the ring games I usually play. So if I'm winning a good amount in a ring game, after I finish I'll play a few SNGs for fun and its sort of a freeroll. If I'm losing at the regular tables for the night I DO NOT play SNGs.

Qx?:

I never said I play Qx I said I'll call with a bunch of limpers in with Qx suited, and of course Kxs and Axs. This goes back to those tremendous implied odds I was talking about earlier. Rest assured, I fold Q8o everytime from every postion early on.

My entire philosophy and why I DO NOT use my stack as a weapon in the middle stages:

I think it all boils down to this. If I had T2500 when there were still 7 players in and was hypothetically made the following offer: "Right now I can give you a 90% chance of making it to the final 3 with T1200, or a 60% chance of making it to the final 3 with T4000." I'd take the first option everytime without hesitation. Furthermore, I dont even think my chances of winning or coming in 3rd are altered too drastically whether I had 4000 chips or 1200. All it takes is one pot at the end and you can go from worst to first or vice versa, that's why I just like to get there.

My estimated record after about 30 SNGs:

Believe it or not I actually do pretty well, though I'm sure I haven't played enough to make any kind of determination of whether or not I can be a consistent winner. But I'd say I have more wins than 2nds and 3rds combined and I finish "in the money" about 1/2 the time. But I also have a disturbing number of 4th place finishes which I guess just goes with the territory they way I play. I maybe have 3 finishes ever of worse than 7th and I usually went in with the best hand and took a beat. Again, I'm not claiming my style is right, but these are my reasons.

[AleoMagus]

Well, thanks for baring your SNG soul - especially to have it ripped to shreds and still respond politely.

I do have a few comments though

I think a large part of your strategy relies on terrible players to be effective and that is why many will attack it. It simply will not show a profit in probably anything but the $5+1 tourneys, if anywhere at all.

Unlike many, I believe that there is a big difference in skill between the $5+1 and the $10+1 and this is probably for precisely the reason you mention. Good players know better than to pay 20% on their entry dollar and play higher.

This is why expecting to double/triple up might make some sense in the first few rounds of a $5+1 but will cause you much greif elsewhere. It simply is not as easy as you descibe. If your strategy goes out the window if you don't do it, I can tell you now, your strategy will be going out the window a LOT in higher stakes tourneys.

When I started I played in hundreds of $5+1 tourneys and I once made an interesting calculation. I came up with an average number of hands it takes to make top 3, then I figured the average number of hands between elimination of players. This came out to about 55-60 hands with players getting eliminated about every 8 hands. I then figured for each hand of the tourney, How many chips I'd need to sit out and make the money, just based on these numbers and the rate at which I'd be blinded off.

Surprisingly, Early in a tourney - It is quite high. I think it was over 2000 chips on hand one and slightly less each hand after that. What is not surprising is that in practice it works out to be much more than that because you are no longer engaged in eliminating players and players will tighten up if they see you are blinding away - especially on the bubble.

What this means is that when you have a big stack, you must use it to your advantage. You must get involved and you must be aggressive. At level 4 and beyond, a steal is great and you don't need to be seeing flops at all. I would recommend picking 10-20 hands at least that you are willing to attack the blinds with in this way.

AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AK-AT, KQ-KJ, 77-AA. Even this would be good. Raise 3x BB or even more. Be careful only when one of the blinds has a huge stack also.

Also, your logic regarding your chances with 1200 as compared to 4000 in the final 3 is very questionable. Yes, one hand can take you from worst to best, but those hands will often be coin toss gambles. With 4000, you will still be alive if that doubling up hand goes awry, AND if you succeed, you bust someone else out. What this means is that when you do gamble you see an immediate payoff (by moving from top3 to top 2). As the short stack, you cannot bust other players and you are really just putting your whole stack on the line, not theirs . What this means is that essentially you will win half as often with 1200 because you will be busting half the time just to get where you start in the 4000 scenario.

As a final note. 30 SNGs is a virtually meaningless sample. I would highly reccommend playing at least 200 before you draw any real conclusions. I don't mean to discourage you from playing as you suggest, especially considering how hard it is to completely summarize a strategy on these message boards. There may be a lot that we are missing.

I would recommend however, that you peruse through a lot of posts here and try to gain an insight about how the really great SNG players are playing. I think you will find it is very tight early and aggressive later, which is in many ways the opposite of what you are doing.

Regards,
Brad S

[blackaces13]

Believe me, I would NEVER play like this if I thought my opponents were even average players. Actually, I wouldn't be able to. How many times can you limp in for 15 units on the button with 90 units already in the pot in a 30+3? Next time will be the first huh? My whole style is entirely predicated on the unpredictableness of my expected opponents. FWIW, I believe that a lot of really good players (waaaay better players than me) are guilty of applying the same rules that they would use against top rate opponents to when they play against drunken leisure players. Or at least they don't adjust enough. Personally, I susbscribe to the theory that when you're playing against really poor players, optimal strategy is radically different than when you're up against tough opponents, ESPECIALLY in No-Limit. I've been in $6 games where 3 players were eliminated on the first hand. If 15 units gets you a shot at that then you have to go for it. Its a limited time offer, while supplies last. I also love playing at around 2am EST and the weekends are even better. I pick my spots. I'm not suggesting for a second that I could get away with my play at a higher level, but that's fine with me. I try to exploit the REALLY bad players while there still alive and have money to call with. A more technically sound approach would be to wait for a big hand and bring it in for a raise, to me this will not get the monster pots that are always for sale in the beginning of a $6 tourny and I'm sticking to my guns on that.

[Stagemusic]

Blackaces.

Thank you for your response. It is difficult to take the shots that I gave you with the class that you showed and defend them without the usual resounding "Yo Momma" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Your response was logical but I must stress that it will only work on a limited basis in the wild type of game that exists on the $5 table on Party. I believe that, in the long run, it will not even be totally successful there.

Remember, you are establishing habits every time you play. Particularly as a relatively new player. You will define your own style by bits and pieces. Hopefully you will continue to improve and adapt but I believe that you are doing yourself a disservice by locking yourself into this style of play.

You said:

[ QUOTE ]
My entire philosophy and why I DO NOT use my stack as a weapon in the middle stages:

I think it all boils down to this. If I had T2500 when there were still 7 players in and was hypothetically made the following offer: "Right now I can give you a 90% chance of making it to the final 3 with T1200, or a 60% chance of making it to the final 3 with T4000." I'd take the first option everytime without hesitation. Furthermore, I dont even think my chances of winning or coming in 3rd are altered too drastically whether I had 4000 chips or 1200. All it takes is one pot at the end and you can go from worst to first or vice versa, that's why I just like to get there.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with your hypothetical is simply this...It won't happen. You are much more likely to make it to the final 3 with 4000 rather than 1200 and I think you realize it. I would be willing to bet that there are many times that you fall into 3rd or 4th position, particularly when up against the one or two players who play solid poker at that level. To tell you the truth, 30 SNG's is not a fair sample. When you have 200+ or more you will have a better idea of how your strategy is working.

Once again, thank you for showing some class. I am sure that you will continue to improve and learn this great game. If there is anything that I or anyone else here can ever do to help, please don't hesitate in asking. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[X-Calibre]

about calling with Qx on and also hoping to hit two pair. My problem with both of these scenarios is not the implied odds you are getting, usually those will be sufficient. But you have to remember that this is not a ring game, it's a tournament and a very short stacked one at that. If you had the chips and time to call with Qx suited 20 times in the tourney then yes the implied odd would be sufficient justification to play that hand. However you only have at best 4 hands in late position during the first two blind levels. It's almost as if you are hoping to hit your flush or two pair in one out of every 10-20 SNGs, what's the point? You have to play each SNG as a seperate session whereas ring games play like one big session where it's ok to chase draws on implied odds.

+EV has to do with how much money you can expect to win from a given scenario. In tournaments, this has less to do with the pot odds/implied odds and more to do with making it to the money. Here's a nightmarish though typical example:

6 limpers you call on the button with Qx hearts. Both blinds are in.

flop A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

you giggle with joy.

by the time the action comes to you there has been a pot sized bet that's 9 x 25 = 225. everyone else has folded. now what? the pot is 550 you dont really have the proper pot odds to call but probably the implied odds. A call would be over 1/4 your stack. If this were a ring game or the stacks were deeper you could all in as a semi bluff, but most likely your opponent will call you in this game. Remember, this is your dream flop, but now i don't like the situation at all. The best you can do here is double up plus 225 chips. I say don't ever put yourself in this situation.

[bob2007]

When I first tried SNGs, I was playing the 5 dollar tables. Having played low limit holdem online for a long time, I thought I should be able to win. Played in maybe 10 of them came out slightly losing. I wondered why. It was the rake. It didn't make sense to pay 20% rake, when the players at the $10 level are relatively the same. Once I started playing the $10 games I was winning. Although, one can argue that it was a small sample at the $5 and I was inexpereinced, I calculated that I woulda been winning a good amount if I had been playing the $10. 10 bucks vs 5 is relatively a small difference.

[blackaces13]

Sure except for one thing... In $5 SNGs I see very few pot sized bets in the early running. These players are unsophisticated and they usually aren't familiar with concepts like making pot sized bets with top pair in order to reduce the odds of the drawing hands. More often than not in this situation I'll either be facing a few min. bets or one huge overbet. The former I love, the latter I muck.

[PugX]

"nt" = no text