How can you fold that??!!

[jmark]

I just had a funny story to share -- I was playing 1/2 earlier today. I had 6/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif in EP and tossed the cards to the dealer, but I threw them at a funny angle and they flipped over. At that point everyone saw them and half the table freaked out that I was throwing such a good hand away. They berated me for throwing away suited cards, especially when they're almost connected!

When I first started playing poker (without reading any books) there was a couple of times when people lectured me for not raising pf, etc. But I've never been yelled at for throwing away 68s!

About an hour later I had AKo in the small blind. Woohoo I think, except that by the time it gets around to me it's capped (the table went through about a half hour period where everyone turned into maniacs). I thought about calling for a second, then thought maybe I shouldn't call 3.5 cold when I knew the flop was going to be capped regardless. Is this a weak play? If it was AKs I would have called. Anyway I very carefully slid my cards to the dealer so there was no chance they'd flip up!

[symphonic]

At a table where people are berating you for tossing away 68s preflop then you should definitely play AKo regardless of if the pot is capped or not. If they think 68s is good, they raise/3bet/cap with any pocket pair/two face cards, so your hand is looking great.

[HajiShirazu]

That's hilarious!

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
At a table where people are berating you for tossing away 68s preflop then you should definitely play AKo regardless of if the pot is capped or not. If they think 68s is good, they raise/3bet/cap with any pocket pair/two face cards, so your hand is looking great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, how can you even consider throwing away AK against this crowd? You couldn't pry me off AK with a crowbar against people who think 68s is too good to throw away. Yes, you're going to lose a lot of your AK hands at that table but when you win... oh boy.

SpaceAce

[aas]

You should have called. They weren't all holding AA. You could have folded on the flop in it didn't hit.

Anyway, I hope you camped at that table for a long long while.

aas.

[Jezebel]

With that crowd, I might try to go one bet above a cap just to draw attention to the fact that the "rock" is trying to get all his money in preflop.

In limit, I don't think I have ever mucked AKo preflop regardless of the competition. It would take a raise and a reraise from total rocks that haven't raised preflop since back before the war for me to toss it. The only hands that have you in a pinch preflop are AA and KK, which are even less likely to be out since you hold AK.

[TimTimSalabim]

I recently returned to playing live poker after a couple of years of playing online almost exclusively, and I had a similar thing happen. Not being used to handling actual cards, I tossed K7o before the flop rather carelessly and both cards flipped up, and boy did I get some looks of astonishment! I guess there's a growing number of "any king" players in addition to the "any ace" ones.

I can't imagine I'd ever throw away AKo before the flop, unless I was absolutely certain someone else was holding AA or KK. At a table of maniacs I would play it every time -- I would raise it myself if it wasn't yet capped. You're going to flop an A or K about 35% of the time, giving you top pair/top kicker.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have called. They weren't all holding AA. You could have folded on the flop in it didn't hit.

Anyway, I hope you camped at that table for a long long while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is worse.

Folding for one bet (or even two) on the flop after several players put in four bets pre-flop is beyond weak-tight. You'd be much better off folding pre-flop than taking this approach.

[MRBAA]

And this I think was the player's reason for mucking. With that much in pre-flop, you're implied odds go way down, and the cost of playing this hand goes way up. Multiway, there's loads of flops you won't like, including many with ace or king and a flush draw or a low card that makes someone else's set. Furthermore, while these players may be nuts, the cap probably does mean some other aces and kings are out there. And your hand has no showdown value multiway in a capped pot. I don't actually think this is an awful fold, although I think playing is okay too, as long as you're prepared to lose quite a bit many times to drag a monster every now and then.

[jmark]

Thanks for the advice. This is the main reason I folded. I didn't want to be forced to calling multiple bets and raises on the flop, especially if I didn't hit -- or even if I did hit then I'd have to worry about multiple two pair / set / straight / flush possibilities with 8 people in the pot. Normally I'd raise this hand from any position, but I didn't want to get into what I almost consider a crap shoot when the table was running crazy. I ran some random hands through twodimes and while AKo is a favorite against 6c8c (no big surprise), it isn't a favorite overall, but then again it isn't as close as I previously thought, so I'll try and start playing this. The hard part for me is figuring out when to correctly give it up. Any advice here would be appreciated.

Anyway I think someone hit a crappy 2 pair on the flop and capped every street vs someone who hit their inside straight on the river. Or something similar to that.

I stayed at the table for awhile and it calmed down, then I saw KTs and flopped the nut straight. Even though I was all of a sudden coming alive and capping every street myself, they all came along and I won quite a nice pot.

Ac Kd 62756 16.65 307595 81.59 6641 1.76 0.175
8c 6c 34278 9.09 334221 88.65 8493 2.25 0.102
As 9d 28032 7.44 345327 91.60 3633 0.96 0.079
8h 7h 76187 20.21 288238 76.46 12567 3.33 0.218
3s 3d 31392 8.33 343691 91.17 1909 0.51 0.085
Qs 7s 63122 16.74 309425 82.08 4445 1.18 0.173
Ks 3c 436 0.12 371639 98.58 4917 1.30 0.007
Jc 4c 60414 16.03 316207 83.88 371 0.10 0.160

[jmark]

Actually I was thinking about this some more and running actual random hands through pokenum (not just ones I made up) and Ako seems to vary between 15% and 25% win rate 8 handed (Except vs KK and AA of course). It looks like the trouble with this hand is more likely going to be how well I play it rather than how strong it is multiway. So I guess I'll lean towards biting the bullet and handle the swings.

[Andy B]

If you fold a "good" hand and it flips up, tell them you misread it. Or say nothing.

Players who think that 86 sooted is a play UTG will not necessarily raise with any pocket pair or any two face cards. For the most part, they will tend to limp in with a lot of hands, and only raise with the best of them. If the game is very loose and very passive, I actually think that 86 sooted is a reasonable play UTG, but you probably don't give up a damned thing by folding it.

I have mucked AKo BTF several times, and will continue to do so when it is three-bet in front of me by players with typical raising standards. If someone raises early, your typical three-bettor is going to have AK or a big pair, probably Tens or higher. Against Aces, you're in trouble. Against Kings, you're a significant dog. Against other big pairs, you're a small dog. Against AK, you're about even money, /images/graemlins/grin.gif but AK sooted is free-rolling on you. Between the two raisers, the three-bettor in particular, there is enough of a chance that you are beaten badly that you should at least consider throwing the hand away. There is also the chance that someone behind you has a big hand as well.

Given that the table was maniacal, though, I think that this is a play, but it's close. In HE4AP, I believe that S&M recommend playing only very big pairs and AKs in games where the pots are routinely capped. AKo will add a lot to your variance but probably not a lot to your earn. I'd play it, but I like to gamble. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If you are going to muck AK before the flop, don't tell anyone. That goes for AQ and JJ too.

[baggins]

then again, it sounds like you're playing in LA (which is the only place besides MAYBE vegas that I've heard of spreading a 1-2 game). if so, then those games are very loose. it's not uncommon to see a capped family pot 2 or 3 times an orbit in some of those games. and it gets capped quite frequently. AKo might not be that bad of a call here, in that situation. however, it's tricky to play postflop with that many people, and you might just have better luck and lower variance tossing it.