Did I throw this away too fast??

[ajizzle]

SB with 76o. 1/2 Party 6max. I complete and 5 to the flop.

Flop is T 9 8 rainbow. I check,check*4, button bets, I call, BB raises, button calls, I three-bet, both call.

Turn is a 7. I bet, BB raises, button cold-calls, I throw the hand away.

Turns out Button had a 6, and BB had AKs??? I threw away the best hand with pretty good pot odds. Was that the wrong move???

[Mike Gallo]

Was that the wrong move???

I think you know the answer. If you want confirmation, then yes you misplayed the hand.

I will go to the river and prepare to pay off Jack Queen.

On the river you would have chopped.

[PYITE]

I think this a perfect place for a check raise on the flop. You want to charge any J the max. If you had check raised, the BB may have 3 bet and forced the button out, making the hand heads up and much easier to play.

[SpiderMnkE]

"I will go to the river and prepare to pay of Jack Queen"

He would be paying off any Jack. Which is a very likely card to be out there. I'm not saying I wouldn't go to the showdown, but I'd fold to almost any raising type action on the turn or river.

You misplayed the hand by not charging the jacks as much as possible for their draws on the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

He would be paying off any Jack

Correct. I wanted to throw out the Jack Queen.

[Inthacup]

I would have bet the flop hoping to get raised by a draw trying to buy a free turn card.

On the turn I would have folded as well.



Cup

[The Dude]

Definately check-raise the flop. The best case scenario for you is exacltly what happened - checked to the button who bets. You can then charge everybody 2 cold and then even the BB with the 6 would be making a mistake calling here.

After the turn scare card hits, when I am raised and someone calls cold, I really don't like my hand. If I have ANY respect at all for either player, I'm dumping my hand. That said, it's difficult for me to give anyone at Party 1/2 credit.

If folding was wrong here, it sure wasn't very wrong. At best you are hoping to chop, which kills your pot odds.

[Jeffage]

You're concentrating on the wrong street when analyzing this hand. You made a bad mistake by not either betting and raising or checkraising the flop to protect your hand. The 76 is likely best now but is vulnerable to many free cards.

Jeff

[Griffin]

ajizzle,

It looks like 4 out of 5 posters recommend CRing this flop. The arguments for CRing are to "charge" the Jack draws and protect your hand.

I think CRing the flop is incorrect. I'll explain my thoughts and let others correct me if I'm wrong.

If someone out there has a Jack, they're not leaving whether you bet or CR. Depending on the number of players, someone with a Jack would be correct to raise it up themselves. If I had your hand and the guy next to me showed me his Jack, I would want to work WITH him to get the most money from the other players in the pot. Whether I win or the guy with the Jack wins is going to be determined by the random distribution of cards. Nothing you can do will make him leave, so forget him and figure out how to extract the most from the guys holding AT, AK, K9s, and the like.

If you, in the SB, CR the button then AT, AK, etc. would be correct to fold, and probably will fold. If you bet this flop, these people will probably call your bet. I agree with Inthecup that you are hoping your flop bet is raised by someone holding a Jack. Whether I 3-bet or smooth call would depend on which action I thought would extract the most from players drawing dead to a straight.

FWIW, I see several posts about people with sets or straights trying to "charge" flush draws when the board has two of a suit. I think the same principle applies in that situation as well. You will hardly ever be able to charge a 4-flush enough to make it correct for him to fold, so all that is accoplished by "charging" the flush draws is to get other players to fold when you would've rather they stayed.

OK, given the number of posters recommending a CR, I probably have the concept completely backwards, or have misapplied something, so someone please tell me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

PS. When the 4-straight hits on the turn, and I've got the butt-end of it, I try to see a showdown as cheaply as possible. I would've called one bet, but most likely folded to a bet and raise. I agree with TheDude that if folding is wrong, it's not THAT wrong.

[1p0kerb0y]

Great post Griffin!

[balkii]

You dont just want to charge somebody with a Jack. You want to charge the guy with a Q, and the guy with a 6, and the guy with a 7. This players will probably call two bets on the flop, and that would be a mistake.

[Griffin]

You want to charge the guy with a Q, and the guy with a 6, and the guy with a 7.

Yeah, I see that. I almost added a comment about how CRing to "charge" a Jack is very different from CRing to charge a Queen.

This players will probably call two bets on the flop, and that would be a mistake.

I hear what you're saying, and there are times where I use a CR to try to drive some drawing hands out, or at least make it a big mistake odds-wise for them to call. However, I tend to use that only for hands that are weaker than a made straight. In ajizzle's hand, he only fears a higher straight (a J or a Q). Because, as you said, a CR won't drive these players out, I think a bet on the flop is better because it will also keep in guys with one pair or overcards.

My main point is that the concept of "charging" opponents who are drawing is often misapplied to the wrong hands (e.g., charging 4-flushes and OESDs) and can result in getting out only the players you want to stay in.

Griff