AQ played too passively?

[maurile]

Party Poker 3/6 (9 handed)
maurile has A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is BB

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, Button folds, SB folds, maurile checks

Flop(3 1/3 SB): 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif

maurile bets, EP1 folds, MP1 raises, maurile calls

Turn(3 2/3 BB): 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

maurile checks, MP1 bets, maurile calls

River(5 2/3 BB): 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

maurile checks, MP1 checks

My biggest weakness in hold'em is that I miss too many value bets post-flop. This hand appears to be an example. I considered 3-betting the flop, but then decided to just call the flop with the intention of check-raising the turn.

But when the second 9 hit the board, I wussed out.

I thought I had the best hand on the flop. Since I was in the big blind and MP1 had position on me, he could easily have been raising with any ace. (He could have figured his medium ace was better than mine; or he could have been trying to slow me down on a later street in case his ace was outkicked.) He could also have been raising on a club draw, or (less likely) a straight draw.

But when the second 9 came on the turn, I got irrationally nervous about it. He couldn't have been raising the flop with middle pair plus an overcard since there was an ace on the board (and thus there were no overcards). He could have had A9, but even in that case the turn card didn't really hurt me (since I was already behind), so what made me revise my plans for the turn?

Was I way too passive here, or am I beating myself up over nothing?

As it turned out, the raiser didn't even have an ace. He had K/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, so he was raising and betting with nothing. I feel very guilty about having failed to punish him adequately.

(There's also a case to be made for raising pre-flop. After two limpers, I'll raise with AQo in the big blind more than half the time, but not all the time. The more limpers there are, the less often I'll raise with it [but the more often I'd raise if it were suited].)

[calvin]

Hello,

Preflop you could have an easy raise, unless you respect the limpers, but I would think you have the best hand here the majority of the time.

On the flop, easy bet. When you get raised, you have two choices. If the EP had called your bet, I would have three-bet, but now that you are HU with a LP limper, you are almost sure to be ahead. His raise could mean anything--flush/straight draw, or a weaker ace are most likely though. I don't really see any reason to three bet the flop HU with what is likely the best hand, so I would checkraise the turn and bet the river.

The only other play I would consider is to bet into him on the turn if a nonclub hit. If raised again, I would check/call down.

Calvin

[Clarkmeister]

Raise preflop. It doesn't get any easier than that.

[tripdad]

i don't think a preflop raise is always good when in the bb. it is a perfect opportunity to disguise your hand. i think the more callers you have , the more important to raise from bb--no one's folding anyway.

cheers!

[Clarkmeister]

If it gives away your hand, you aren't raising from the BB enough.

Its simply too much hand to take the flop for 1sb against 2 limpers.

[tripdad]

its not that it gives your hand away when you raise. what a check does do, though is encourages action post flop. when the ace does come, my AQ now becomes a great c/r'ing hand on the river. ideally, it gives you 2 extra big bets rather than 2 extra small ones.

also,if you raise that preflop, then bet out on flop, you will not get as much action as when you just check---agree?

cheers!

[BugsBunny]

I actually think you have that backwards. With unsuited high cards you should raise more with fewer limpers. AQo against a family pot I would (usually) limp (suited I raise).

Unsuited big cards prefer fewer opponents. Suited cards thrive on the implied odds that many opponents give - and when they're big suited cards they also play well against fewer opponents.

[calvin]

Hello,

I don't see how checking encourages any more or less action post flop. If most opponents make a hand, they are going to bet a raise regardless of my action.

I have never, ever, been able to checkraise two opponents on the river, let alone with as little as AQo, and collect from both of them. I have seen bad players, but none bad enough where there could be two that pay off my river checkraise.

Moreover, who's to say you'll even have two opponents when the river comes? Raising preflop you almost always get 2SBs into the pot, whereas going for some crazy river check raise, that you describe as ideal--although it's more of a pipe dream--could earn you no extra bets.

AQ is a too strong of a hand to let two limpers see the flop for free. You don't raise to kill your action, and you don't check to create action. You raise because you have the best hand and you want to charge the limpers. You have to take into consideration all of the times you don't flop an A or Q and still win unimproved because you did raise.

Calvin

[tripdad]

i know unsuited high cards don't play as well as suited cards. does this mean that if you have AA in the bb with 9 limpers, you wouldn't raise? i think not.

my reason for checking against 2 limpers--and again--not always--- i believe is valid. that is, it encourages action, and i believe i will make more money that way. if i raise, they will undoubtedly call that raise, but maybe not my bet on the flop or turn or river.

cheers!

[tripdad]

i meant to say the turn--not the river--sorry. in this fella's case, i believe the best way for him to play it would be:

preflop--check (3 to flop)

flop--bet, call (i think he gained 1 extra sb here by checking preflop. had he raised preflop, the other most likely would have just called.)

turn--check/raise (he gains 1 extra bb here because he checked preflop and cold called on the flop)

river--bet--opponent will fold--nothing gained, nothing lost.

total extra bets gained by checking preflop: minimum of 3sb

total extra bets gained by raising preflop: maximum 2sb

cheers!

[Allan]

you forgot one thing:

Watching them pee their pants when they thought they were going to be able to see the flop with their junk for one small bet. That, my friend, is easily worth that extra SB.


Allan