Help me understand pot odds a bit better

[DanTheCardMan]

(For purposes of this discussion I won't mention specific hands as I want to stay away from strategy at this point.)

Say I'm in EP and there's 4 small bets in the pot pre-flop. After the flop, I bet and get raised from LP. Everyone else folds. What are my pot odds to call the raise?

With my first bet, I was getting 4:1 pot odds, I believe. I was also getting 5:1 implied, at least, with more players after me. But when I was raised, what happened with the odds?

Maybe a better way to phrase this is, how should I view my odds to call the raise? Do I look at it as there being 7 bets in the pot so I'm getting 7:1 odds? Or do I look at it as there being 6 bets, not including my two(bet and call), so with my two I'm getting 6:2 or 3:1 odds?

[Paul Talbot]

In this situation it is 7:1. There are seven bets in the pot and it costs you one to call. It doesn't matter that some of the money in the pot originally came from you.

If you walkd up to the table and someone handed you a hand and said, "here, play this" you wouldn't care where the money in the pot came from, you'd just decide if the hand was profitable to continue with. Your decision should not be any different.

Regards,

Paul

[DanTheCardMan]

OK, I can see what you're saying. Now let me ask a slightly different question and to apply that a bit to some strategy.

Say I'm in LP with 55. 1 EP and 1 MP limp in. I raise (for value, as per Sklansky) and Button calls. SB folds and BB calls, as do EP and MP.

11 bets in the pot.

Flop comes J/8/2. BB bets out, EP and MP call (14 bets in the pot). Now if I raise, with the expectation that Button will fold and BB, EP and SB will call, that will put 19 bets into the pot. From what I understand you saying, I'll have basically given myself the correct odds to see the turn in hopes of hitting trips. Is that correct? Or is it that when the action comes to me, I'm only getting 7:1 odds if I decide to raise at that point, making any kind of bet by me not worth it?

(As a bit of an aside, I can see where, if it's the former, the tight-aggressive style really makes sense. In a way, you're giving yourself the odds to draw out, where the weak-tight player who just calls isn't getting those same odds. Interesting.)

[Paul Talbot]

On the flop you are getting 13:1 (you count 14, but the SB was only half a bet PF and there will be a rake, so call it 13). You are a 22:1 dog to hit your set. If you need to make a set to win you clearly fold your hand. Raising it you are putting in two bets to win 15 (assuming two calls). This is only 7.5:1 and you are far worse off than if you had called (incorrectly) with 13:1 odds.

However, your decision to raise or bail on a hand like this has to be based as much on hand reading as on odds to hit your set. If you don't think anyone has a pair of jacks, you absolutely have to raise to force out overcards and you can dramatically increase the chances of winning the hand.

Often when you build a big pot you end up with odds to continue with a middling hand, but remember that your opponents also have better odds as well and as the person who will wind up with the best hand more often than not on the flop, you will need to learn how to manipulate the pot post-flop to try and reduce these odds when possible.

Regards,

Paul

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Say I'm in EP and there's 4 small bets in the pot pre-flop. After the flop, I bet and get raised from LP. Everyone else folds. What are my pot odds to call the raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are calling 1 bet and there are (4 + 1 + 2 =) 7 bets in the pot. So you are gettign 7:1 (minus rake) on your call. Your previous bet is no longer yours and is now part of the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
With my first bet, I was getting 4:1 pot odds, I believe. I was also getting 5:1 implied, at least, with more players after me. But when I was raised, what happened with the odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Repeat after me, "I do not get pot odds when I bet". Pot odds are for calling, you make bets for other reasons. The only time to worry about pot odds for a bet are for calculating whether or not a bluff would be profitable.

[crockpot]

you must distinguish between bet odds and pot odds. basically, when betting or raising, consider bet odds, and when calling, consider pot odds.

bet odds: if you bet and get three callers, your bet odds are 3:1. if you are better than 3:1, you gain EV with this bet because you are getting better odds than your odds to win the pot. if you are less than 3:1, you have lost EV.

pot odds: compare the number of bets in the pot, plus those that will be put in, with the amount you have to call. here you are getting 7:1 to call.

i have more content about bet odds vs. pot odds at my website, under the beginner's guide to odds essay. (link in profile)

[SaintAces]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t40000 (2 handed)

BB (t997644)
Button (t2577356)

Preflop: Hero is with , .

Flop: (t4000) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t4000) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB bets t120000, Button calls t120000.

River: (t244000) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB bets t240000, Button calls t240000.

Final Pot: t724000