AA UTG - Do I need help?

[ThinkQuick]

Dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Limp in from UTG
2 EP callers, MP raises, LP ReRaises, I Cap
First EP folds, EP2 calls, MP calls, LP calls

Flop 10 8 4 (1 diamond)
I bet, EP calls, MP folds

Turn [10 8 4] 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I bet, EP calls, says "I've gotta see the river"
-This guy has been so tight, and always folded when he was supposed to.

River [10 8 4 2] A

Heads up so unlimited reraises.
I make my trips and decide to check raise
I check, he bets, I raise
He reraises, I reraise
He rereaises, I call.

He shows down 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the nut straight.

I just don't get it, what should I have done?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[BaronVonCP]

[Hallett]

Please explain in detail why you would limp in with A-A. UTG or wherever else, you can't do this. Period. You lost because you did not raise. I don't know from you post what the limits are, but would you call two bets cold with 3-5 suited? Honest answer here! If you would, go shoot yourself now, and save yourself the pain of seeing yourself go broke. The guy that beat you would have been making a HUGE mistake in calling you IF you had raised. You didn't. Therefore his action was right. You screwed up.

[Tosh]

It happens...

[Kluddeludde]

Since EP called three bets cold after he capped it with his aces, I don't think it would have made any difference whether he raised first in. He would have lost anyway.

And, no, it is not that horribly wrong to limp-reraise with pocket aces.

Kludde

[Alobar]

He called 3 cold pre flop from EP with 53s. Not much you can do against that. I think you played it fine.

[Hallett]

You are right with the guy cold calling, he isn't going anywhere. I still would raise with the AA though.

[Mike Gallo]

Someone calling that many bets preflop with 35 does not sound ... This guy has been so tight, and always folded when he was supposed to.

I would have lost a lot more. I would not have put someone I considered a solid player going that many bets preflop with those cards.

You need to reevaluate how you view players /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ThinkQuick]

I think it may be a low limit problem
At 3/6 you can get guys that'll just decide to call.
but 3 bets to him preflop... jeez.

[ThinkQuick]

Kluddeludde's got it just right Hallett.
First of all I shoudn't mind if I have to go into a pot with AA against 35s, but he still 'should've' folded because it was still 3 bets ($9 @ 3/6) to him when it came back around.
I was first to act after the big blind.. this is the position where, if I call, it's most likely that there will be a raise (most players still to act) before the flop.
In fact it turned out to be fortunate because I was able to cap the betting at $12. EP probably still makes the "HUGE MISTAKE" by calling it.

Oy. Most I've ever lost on a hand ($51). It happens.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't get it, what should I have done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much you could do. The limp-reraise worked perfectly, as you got to cap it. If he limps with that trash in EP, then calls 3 more back to him, he's probably calling your raise cold.

What you should do is change your evaluation of his abilities as a player and look for him every time you play.

[Bob T.]

Most I've ever lost on a hand ($51).

You've lived a sheltered life /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[ThinkQuick]

Thanks Bob, but I play a 3/6 game, and only when it looks soft.
So getting rivered for a stack quashing amount kind of hurt.
Is it too darn hard to imagine losing this hand at your limits for you to be sympathetic?

[Bob T.]

I'm sorry, it was just something that I thought of that might be funny, but it probably wasn't to you. Here is some more instructive thought on the hand.

Look at it this way, in an online game, you can get 12 big bets into a pot, and on this hand, you only got 8 and a half. In a live game, it could be either 12, or 15. Worse things are going to happen to you, and they will happen when your opponent has fewer outs than this.

You are going to get better results, if you don't think about the money. When you look at this hand, you shouldn't think that there is $51 I just lost, or there is $127 (or whatever it was) in his stack that should be in mine.

What you should be thinking about, is how do I play the next hand? What tactics should I be using to take advantage of a player that calls three cold with 53 suited. What tactics should I use to take advantage of a player who calls with nothing but a double backdoor on the flop? You thought that he had been making a lot of folds, but maybe he was just in hands where he didn't even catch double backdoor?

What about MP, who raised and then folded for one bet on the flop in a big pot, how do you adjust for his play? And the preflop three bettor, who also didn't make it to the river when it was one bet on the flop and turn, do you need to make adjustments for him? What do you think they had to play this way? What are their raising and reraising requirements?

Did I make the right number of raises on the river, should I have gone one more, or stopped in one fewer? When you did stop, did you give him credit for having 53, or was there some other reason that you stopped? (for whatever it is worth, I got taken out of a nolimit tourney a week ago because I didn't see the straight possibility on a AJ842 board) Any other adjustments that need to be made? How does the table view your play after this hand?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain in detail why you would limp in with A-A. UTG or wherever else, you can't do this. Period. You lost because you did not raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've become a firm believer in limping first-in in EP, and especially UTG, with AA and KK if the game has at least moderate aggression. I've also done it with QQ and JJ. The chances of geting a limp-reraise in and charging your opponents at least three bets to see the flop is too great to pass up.

[Homer]

Please explain in detail why you would limp in with A-A. UTG or wherever else, you can't do this. Period. You lost because you did not raise.

You are dead wrong. He got ~18 small bets into the pot by limp-reraising with AA. In an aggressive game, this is often the best play.

-- Homer

[Hallett]

I disagree. EP put his $$$ in first, and then felt committed to the pot. He opened the betting with a limp. The least the guy with AA should have done is to bet first, so EP is calling a bet. Maybe it would not have changed anything, but I would think most rational people would say to themselves something like this:

Hey, that guy raised before the flop......I followed, 'cause I am already in for one SB... But, he also bet out on the flop.....I have crap..one diamond, and a three card straight.....I bet he is ahead....Maybe trip 10's, or a higher two pair. I should fold.

If he still calls after all this, this is your new best friend. He will pay you in any future hands that you are in. You lost this one, but take down his number, and take some notes, because HE is a crap player. You have to bet to push him. You don't limp with AA, and lose to a runner runner straight (or flush) and say you played the hand correctly.

[GuyOnTilt]

I've also done it with QQ and JJ. The chances of geting a limp-reraise in and charging your opponents at least three bets to see the flop is too great to pass up.

I think I raise these hands up front less for value, and more to limit the field, so I'm not a huge fan of limp-reraising here. I also would rather not give someone with as little as overcards the correct odds to call the flop and turn.

GoT

[Pat C]

Really? Can you explain why check-folding is a better option than check-calling when you are getting 11:1 on your money, heads up, with the top set on the board?

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? Can you explain why check-folding is a better option than check-calling when you are getting 11:1 on your money, heads up, with the top set on the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only assume the Baron was joking with that post. I laughed when I read it, anyway.

[Hallett]

So, GOT, do you agree that he should have bet his A-A?

[GuyOnTilt]

So, GOT, do you agree that he should have bet his A-A?

If you mean his limp-reraise PF, at certain tables, I'll limp reraise with AA UTG 30 or 40% of the time. If you do choose to limp-reraise AA and KK a certain % of the time up front, you should also be doing it with other hands though. Good players will notice, since limp-reraises do tend to draw attention to themselves. Add AJs, AQs, AK, and others to the mix. But again, only certain tables are good for limp-reraises, and even at those, open-raising AA UTG is still my standard play.

If you were referring to some other street, then sorry for all that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Just tell me if I wasted my breath there.

GoT

[Hallett]

the limits and texture of the table have not been told by the original poster, so I don't know for sure what is best. I don't have any information which leads me to believe that the limp-reraise was the best move, and due to the fact that the post-flop was opened by 3-5 suited, I think it was wrong for this table. I agree fully that the limp-reraise can be a wonderful tool, and you have to use it all the way down to A-Qs or A-Js to disguise it.....I see no reason based on the provided information, to suggest it is the appropriate move here.

[GuyOnTilt]

I can't say whether or not I would've limp-reraise AA in this particular hand because, as you said, no info is given about opponents or table texture. But your statement that, "UTG or wherever else, you can't do this [limp-reraise with AA]. Period," sounds like you disagree with the play in general. It's fine if you never choose to use it; I know people who don't and they do just fine and probably aren't giving up anything by raising it 100% of the time. But there's nothing wrong with occassionally limp-reraising. It can be a good weapon to have in your arsenal.

GoT

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do choose to limp-reraise AA and KK a certain % of the time up front, you should also be doing it with other hands though. Good players will notice

[/ QUOTE ]

Good players may notice but the don't often adjust. If you limp-reraise with only AA and KK, you'll only be doing it about once every 11-12 orbits. You can be adjusting your play for something a person does only once every 11-12 orbits.

[BaronVonCP]

Yeah I was being facetious. (sp?)

Posts like this that describe some bad beat, and then asking what should have been done differently are kinda silly IMO.

But really, FTOP wise, the "correct" play is to check fold the river. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any information which leads me to believe that the limp-reraise was the best move, and due to the fact that the post-flop was opened by 3-5 suited, I think it was wrong for this table

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you should work on using your terminology properly. I don't undestand what you mean when you say "the post-flop was opened by 3-5 suited".

Second, why would it matter what the 53s hand did post-flop? The only criteria you need to know is how often the pre-flop action at the table is getting raised and how your opponents are reacting to those raises.

If the action is getting raised more than 50% of the time, you've got a perfect table to go for the limp-reraise. If players are folding their marginal hands to pre-flop raises, you definitely want to limp-reraise.

However, if your opponents are calling any # of bets no matter who raises from what position, it's probably better to just open-raise yourself.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I've also done it with QQ and JJ. The chances of geting a limp-reraise in and charging your opponents at least three bets to see the flop is too great to pass up.

I also would rather not give someone with as little as overcards the correct odds to call the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you posted this. When you raise, you are not giving your opponents "correct odds to call". You are cutting down their odds.

[GuyOnTilt]

I can't believe you posted this. When you raise, you are not giving your opponents "correct odds to call". You are cutting down their odds.

I was referring to the huge pot you're building by limp-reraising QQ and JJ. If the flop ends up getting seen 5 ways for 3 bets each, players will correctly be calling a flop bet with as little as one overcard, and since so many players will call a single flop bet, the pot will then be even larger. If it's 10 BB's going into the turn, they'll again be correctly calling a turn bet with very, very little. This is something I want to avoid with QQ and JJ, since my hand is very vulnerable to overs. I don't see my limp-reraise PF as "cutting down their odds" on later streets, but please do correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong.

GoT

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've also done it with QQ and JJ. The chances of geting a limp-reraise in and charging your opponents at least three bets to see the flop is too great to pass up.

I also would rather not give someone with as little as overcards the correct odds to call the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you posted this. When you raise, you are not giving your opponents "correct odds to call". You are cutting down their odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Dynasty /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think GOT meant that by building such a large pot pre-flop, you are giving your opponents correct odds to call flop and turn bets and try to draw out on you. I see he answered for himself. So your limp-reraise decreases your chances of ultimately winning the pot.

I guess the question is whether the size of the pot is going up faster than your odds of winning the pot are going down.

[Hallett]

I agree with you 100%, my first post was too strong. There are many valid reasons to limp-reraise. I just hate to see someone steal this pot with 5-3o, when he should not be there, but heck, it is poker, and anything can, and will, happen.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop ends up getting seen 5 ways for 3 bets each, players will correctly be calling a flop bet with as little as one overcard, and since so many players will call a single flop bet, the pot will then be even larger. If it's 10 BB's going into the turn, they'll again be correctly calling a turn bet with very, very little

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand such as ATo (one overcard to your pocket pair) is just barely getting the proper odds to call a flop bet when you've got QQ/JJ and the board is something like 9,5,3 rainbow. The hand is 14.67:1 to improve. Their call is approximately EV neutral for both of you. A similar call on the turn is definitely -EV for ATo.

If you get three bets in pre-flop and they call a flop bet and turn bet, you've got them putting 3 big bets chasing their longshot draws when their play is at best EV neutral and usually -EV. If you simply raise pre-flop and they quickly fold on the flop the way you seem to want, they're only putting 1 big bet into the pot.