10-20 5 handed online hand--perfectly played?

[mike l.]

paradise 5 handed 10-20 great game. im playing quite reasonably and relatively quite tightish. i have Jd8d in the sb. all players limp, i complete, bb checks.

the flop is Kc8h4s. i bet, folded to button who is fairly reasonable, not very good, but not awful, who calls.

the turn is 4c. i check, he bets, i checkraise. he calls.

the river is 5d. i bet.

comments?

[Billy LTL]

If the typical short games at Party Poker are similar to their Paradise counterparts I'd say you played it pretty good. I don't know if you won but I'm pretty sure you didn't get raised on the river and I'm even more sure you got paid off if you did win.

Anyway, I'll take a shot at guessing his hand. 8c7c?

Billy

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I'll take a shot at guessing his hand. 8c7c?


[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's a chop.

[Gabe]

Could you elaborate on your thoughts on the turn? Did you think that you could get him to fold another 8 or a K?

[Billy LTL]

[ QUOTE ]
Then it's a chop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that and it's for this reason I like mike l's river bet.

Billy

[stripsqueez]

i've spent plenty of time in this school and its significantly better than the 10/20 short handed game at party

it seems to me the best reason to check the turn is to induce a bluff - when the button just calls the flop then you are likely in front but its no certainty so that plan is a dangerous one - i think you need to have a decent view about what the button has and/or how he will react on the turn to make this a good play

maybe he bet his flush draw on the turn - maybe he has 99 - i cant think of hands that will sensibly fold to your river bet that beat you - i dont like it much as a value bet either unless you have a very aggressive image with this opponent

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[WyattErb]

i actually like the first bet, i also like the checkraise on the turn...but when he calls he is very likely to have a king, so betting the river is(in my opinion) an awful play! there are just too man hands that beat you, and ur opponent is very unlikely going to fold a king, even if he has no kicker. I would definitely check the river!
btw what did the other guy hold?

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
there are just too man hands that beat you, and ur opponent is very unlikely going to fold a king,

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly I'll say that there are just too many hands that he DOES beat. Second pair in a short handed game is pretty OK.


This is why he has to bet.

He has to call a bet if he checks anyhow, so he needs to bet to get calls from hands that he beats that that opponent may not bet if checked to... like 77, or AQ. If he checks, then he ends up putting money in ONLY when the opponent either has him beat, or when the opponent takes a shot at the pot with nothing. There is also the possibility that the opponent would make an error and fold an 8 of his own - buying Mike half the pot with a bet.

I think it unlikely that J8 is not the best hand right now on this board given the action. And if he played a K like that, then so be it.

~D

[astroglide]

i thought you quit playing online. might wanna check out party instead. anyway, i don't like the checkraise. you seem to put yourself in a lot of situations where you must fold to a 3bet when you may have the best hand.

i would bet the turn and river.

[elysium]

hi mike
in this situation, you need to consider your kicker. also, leading into this many opponents with that is not a good idea. you got lots of folds, but it just seems as though these opponents, who didn't call would have checked to the LP who then could have given you the opportunity to check-raise.

you're a lot stronger if you get heads-up against a button who entered in based on the number of checks shown, than as in this case, with him calling a credible bet made into a large field. my way you check and get raised out of the pot, or check-raise a weak button. but that isn't great either.

i check and fold on the flop here. this is just the situation that gets worse and worse. that kicker mike....whew. this button, as weak as he is, doesn't make this hand any better. i don't get involved in this spot. so how did you win it?

[WyattErb]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly I'll say that there are just too many hands that he DOES beat. Second pair in a short handed game is pretty OK.


[/ QUOTE ]
True, but when his opponent is calling a checkraise, isnt it very likely that he has that King? True, he beats many hands, and they all folded already!
I would check the river, if the other guy has the King and a high kicker, he will bet! and then u fold. when u bet and he raises u, then he sure has a king and a decent kicker and u have to call! If there is no king, he checks, and if he has a King and no kicker he checks, too, because he has to be afraid of u having a king and a high kicker(because of ur checkraise on the turn)
So i think the best play on the river is definitely a check!

[karlson]

I don't get it. I would say that it's terribly played unless you're not telling us something you knew about the button.

I'm sure that your read was that he had an 8 or a pair below 88. I don't know why you would make this read, a K is at least as likely. There's no way that an average player folds a K to your checkraise.

Are you telling me that it's perfect to invest 3BB into this pot just to try to get him to lay down an 8 (or maybe 99 or TT)?

[astroglide]

RESULTS?

[mike l.]

yeah so i bet the river and he took a really long time and then finally called and he had A8o so his kicker played and he took it down.

when i played it i was thinking gee i played that hand pretty well, but then i posted it and thought about it and felt like a river check-call was best to induce a bluff maybe or get him to check behind with a hand that beats me.