6-12 Big flop, what's the correct play?

6-12 Mirage.


Aggressive UTG limps (extreme weakness), Loose Local calls in EP, Fishy Old Man in MP raises. This means A9 or better, or pocket JJ and up. SB calls, I call in the BB with Th5h. All others call. 5 see the flop for 2 bets each.


Flop: 10s 7h 3h


Checked to FOM who bets, SB folds, I raise. All fold to FOM who calls.


Turn: [10s 7h 3h] Qc. Check-Bet-Call.


Comments on my play, particularly on the flop are appreciated. A friend and I both thought that check-calling, leading, and checkraising were all very close and I'd like to see what everyone here thinks.

I like the flop. But I think I would have led the turn.

I like checkraise as well. Can get a pretty good idea if your T is good and can knock out overcards by forcing the call of two bets. However, you only really find out about your T if you lead the turn. Also, hides your flush draw very well.


Biggest comment I have, however, is how can you call with T5s? For me, this is an easy muck- especially in the terrible position you were in. I think this was an extremely flawed call. Perhaps you were trying to be deceptive?

The check-raise on the flop is very good to blast out overcards just in case your pathetic 10s with 5 kicker are currently good. A weak hand like this need to be protected and a check-raise is the best way to do it.


On the turn, I would usually bet if I raised the flop. However, if you think the FOM has 10s beat then you might as well hope to get a free card and hit your flush.

Just my two bits here ...


Preflop ... I'd probably fold T5s in this situation. Your hand is not particularly strong, and you have players yet to act behind you (does UTG subscribe to "Pointless Limp-Reraise Magazine?")


On the flop ... of the three options you call "very close" I really don't like check-call here. You get the least information from your opponents, and do the least to protect your vulnerable hand.


Betting out might be a consideration if FOM is the kind of opponent who will check in last spot with overcards if he misses the board. (Given your range of possible hands for him, there are 36 ways he beats you, and 64 ways that he holds only overcards.) This avoids giving a free card, although by betting you will put in the 11th small bet, which gives gutshots and overcard draws odds to call correctly. However, you do have a decent flush draw/two pair draw which combine to give you as many as 14 outs, so you don't mind a large field so much.


However, it is far more likely that FOM will fire again regardless of whether he has hit the board or not. In this case, check-raising defends your hand nicely by making it expensive (and incorrect) for the others to stay in and draw to overcards and gutshots, etc. If 3-bet, you can shut down and go into check and call mode until you hit. Moreover, you camoflage the flush draw aspect of your hand.


So, ultimately, I think the decision is between betting out and check-raising, and lies entirely in your read of the playing tendencies of FOM.


On the turn, I'm not a huge fan of the check and call. True, it is now 52 to 48 that he has you beat, but you're still in the driver's seat. Bet out. If you get raised, so be it ... you now have more information to enable you to play the river correctly.


Hope these incoherent ramblings help. How'd the hand turn out?


Dave

...Read a few opinions in this thread, but I still think I'd play it differently than the consensus.


Pre-Flop: ...call is mandatory in this particular game.


Flop: Lead at it. The "Fish"y Old Man can be counted on to raise the field with this Flop unless he has AK/AQ. You welcome most callers anyway with your 2-card Heart draw. Don't check-raise your callers out. You might even get 3 bet. The FOM seemed likely to go to the River at least. ALSO, your CR will Fold middle pairs where as FOM raising might result in a call. Let these draws come until the Turn. Then reconnoiter and hopefully slam the door on them. The most advantageous result of your CR was the isolation a weak player.


Turn: I would bet. I understand why you didn't. Did you read him AQ? /images/smile.gif


River: Bet - don't try to CR! ...bet you wanted to try it.


21Kid

I check-called the turn.


River was [10s 7h 3h Qc] Qh


I bet and was called by ATo. My flush is good.


***************************


I am surprised that people think the preflop call is questionable. Limp-reraise is unlikely from UTG. Seems pretty automatic to me, especially against a weak lineup. 9-1 is pretty nice for any 2 suited, and yes, I would have called with any 2 suited.


On the flop, I decided that the chance I was in the lead meant I needed to protect the hand and not try and build a pot. If I had flopped middle pair and a flush draw rather than top pair here I would lead 100% of the time. Top pair made me start thinking of how I could maximize my chances of winning unimproved. No one likes check-calling and I admit thats my last choice here. Most seem to agree with protecting my cheesy top pair.


On the turn, FOM is capable of overplaying and raising if he had a queen in his hand, or an overpair. I saw him make a horrendous river raise after being checkraised on the turn earlier. Once it was heads up, I saw no reason to have a 2BB turn. He also is capable of throwing chips out there with no pair, so there was a small chance of inducing a bet from a worse hand. If someone else had called I would have bet.


Thanks for the thoughts gang!

I don't call that a "big" flop. Pre flop I dont like your call of the raise. Hell I usually dont think about it for a second on the button for one bet let alone out of position calling a raise "just cause I'm 1/2 way in".


On the flop the checkraise aint so bad trying to win it here.


other then that pretty routine.


tighten up in them blinds tho is my opinion.

I think getting 9-1 on my call makes calling pretty easy. I am less than that to flop a flush draw, let alone trips, two pair, etc. This lineup was weak also.

A; It's only 10 high.


B; it's 8:1 to flop a flush DRAW. THEN 2:1 to get there, which could cause you pain.


C; Your odds on all your othere stuff is much worse.


I believe. REALLY believe, these hands bleed you. Especially in a loose game.


Example: Last nite in a loose-passive 10-20 I'm in the BB for a free ride with Jh9h. Flop came ace high all hearts. I checkraised a late position better, turn came pair, I checked he checked, river rag, I checked he bet his Qh8h flush. God I HATE the BB! Had it been 2 bets to me pre-flop I muck it in a heart beat.

We just have to agree to disagree then sir /images/smile.gif .


I would call any raise from any position with J9s for one more bet in my BB.

Absolutely.