6-12

Rational UTG raises, UTG 2 cold calls, with several loose players behind me, I cold call with 77, hoping several of these loosies help build a nice pot. No dice. 3 of us go to the flop.


FLOP: J 6 3 rainbow. UTG bets, UTG2 folds, I raise.


TURN: [J 6 3] 5. UTG checks, I bet, UTG mucks TT face up.


Given the action and the texture of that flop, how can he call?


Thoughts appreciated.

If he were to reraise you here would you fold or call?

I remeber you making a few wierd plays in previous posts but this one I like. You have to either raise or fold here, and then you can hopefully get him to fold if he has overcards or pairs 88-TT. Of course he may not necessarily raise w/ 88 but its still possible. Anyway the pot's big and you give yourself a decent chance to win it by getting your opponents to fold, plus you still have a couple outs as long as he doesn't have JJ.


Kris

If I knew you as a good player, then I wouldnt muck TT here. You coldcalled after another one coldcalled his raise. You would probably have 3-bet with an overpair preflop, and most likely JJ although you could have played it the same way. Furthermore you wouldnt coldcall with hands like AJo, KJ etc, so the only hands you likely have that have UTG beat are JJ, (although not too likely, you might slowplay or have raised preflop), AJs or 66. But most likely you hold a medium pocket pair as you did. UTG should either call you down or 3-bet the flop, and lead the turn IMO. Especially since you have the tendency to overplay medium pocket pairs IMO (from what I read from your other posts, this one you played fine if you knew UTG was capable of laying such hand down)


Just my opinion.


Regards

He can't call, but he can lead. I would have led the turn in his case to see what kind of action arose.


I might have also 3 bet the flop and fold if the action is capped.

At games below 10-20, I can count the number of times that I've had a player fold on the flop after they bet and I raised on one hand. It doesn't matter whether they've been raised or check-raised, they always take a card off. They will often fold after I bet the turn, but I consider plays like this to be risking two big bets (a double flop bet and a turn bet).


Then again, what do I know.


Rube

I assume you mean on the flop.


I would call and fold the turn if I do not improve. In this case I picked up a gutshot so if I thought the player was capable of laying down an overpair (what I would put him on if he 3bet. Getting TT-88 to fold is a bonus, what I really raise for is to see if he has only overcards) I might try raising again. If not, I would look at the 7.5 BB in the pot and take one off for my 6 outer. Implied odds make this one marginally correct to call.

AJs is out from here, but I suspect this player doesn't know that. I can really only have a pocket pair of some type from this position without more callers. I need to be on the button with 5 callers for me to start increasing my range of hands significantly.


I agree he should 3-bet. But this player isn't the type to do that. My raise is obviously made to punish overcards. Getting TT to muck was simply a sweet bonus.

I like either of those plays if I am him. The 3bet and fold is particularly appealing, since it might get me to muck a better hand if I was making a loose preflop call with JTs or some such.


On the turn here if he simply calls and leads, I would start to consider 88-TT as possible holdings, and with the gutshot on the turn could possibly raise him again. With a 3bet on the flop, I am unlikely to attempt this since I would then put him on an overpair and think it unlikely he mucks an overpair on this particular board.

How would you play it? This particular player's most likely holdings from UTG are TT-AA and AK-AQ with no AJ. He would limp or muck AJ UTG in this game.


So do you just call-call-call to see if you are against overcards at the river? I want to see if he can 3-bet me so I can define his hand further. I will get called by TT, JJ (would checkraise turn) and overcards, and raised by AA-QQ. I think raising is mandatory heads up with my hand, but I think that HE had more options than call-check-folding here. I like many of the suggestions of the group here regarding his options.


I find folding the flop in this spot to be giving up way too much when the aggressor has a reasonable chance of having nothing but overcards.

Thanks. Glad this one isn't so "wierd" /images/wink.gif


I pick up a gutshot on the turn. If he leads into me on the turn after calling the flop, do you call, fold or raise with 6.5BB in there and implied odds of 1 more BB.


I am thinking that it is close since the most likely hands he call-leads are TT and JJ. TT might fold, but JJ will 3bet. He is more likely to have TT than JJ given the board.


So if 3bet I assume I am down to 4, not 6 outs, but now have 8.5 bb in the pot with 10.5 implied. Close to even on the call once 3 bet. But TT will likely fold to a raise.


Seems to me that raising the turn if led into is better if he just calls the flop. Of course I have to be right that he would only play TT and JJ this way, and would have 3bet with overpairs.


Assuming he 3bets the flop, I likely call since I don't think he is as likely to muck an overpair, and I am getting (barely) the right price to draw to my 6 outer.

I wasn't implying in my previous post that I'd play the flop any differently than you. You ended your post by asking:


Given the action and the texture of that flop, how can he call?


I assumed you were asking "how could he call on the flop if he was just going to fold on the turn?" My post was answering this question.


I never assume that I'll be able to get somebody off a hand for one small bet on the flop. Some players try to get an opponent to fold by check-raising the flop, and then when called they assume they're beat and go into check-fold mode. Whenever I plan on check-raising a flop in a similar situation I always assume that I'll have to bet again on the turn to take down the pot.


Since you asked, I would check-raise the flop. If reraised, I'd call hoping to spike a 7, otherwise check-fold. If I'm just called on the flop I'd fire again on the turn. If raised on the turn, I'd probably fold. If called, action on the river would depend on the player and the turn and river cards. If the board is still all undercards to the Jack, I'd check and hope to induce a bluff from a big ace.


Then again, what do I know


Rube

Okay thanks clarky.

Nice play. If he had only over cards he probably has to fold. Since he has TT to showdown and it's heads up I might have to check/call you down.


Does he know you? Would he expect you to reraise pre-flop with AA-JJ? If I don't know anything about you I would also lean towards calling you down.

Well if you are going to raise him on the turn again after he leads this might be taking it too far in this spot. You have to fear that him leading on the turn means that he doesn't want to give a free card. Of course if he is a good player there will be a few hands that he may lead with then fold if raised but those are probably few and far between (like you said he'll probably only do this with TT or 99).


Kris

nice play. ya took control and stayed with it pressuring him all the way. UTG screwed up by not reraising. its a cheap street, thats the time to do it for information and gain control and apply pressure. kinda like you did. haha AceHigh had some good thoughts about calling down too. if no overcard hits the turn, since its head up. still can be a tough call if he saw that you were gonna bet before he put his chips in.

again...nice play..


b