Poker Beginner - Which Game to Learn First?

[Mung]

I know most of the rules for most of the poker games I might be interested in playing, but what I do not know is correct strategy. I am particularly interested at this time in understanding the odds and probabilities realting to various poker games.

When setting out to learn poker odds and probabilities, is there a particular game or games that it would be more beneficial for me to begin with, such as Texas Hold'em (only two initial cards), or 5-Card Draw (Jacks or Better)?

I've started with Seven-Card Stud, but I don't think it is my best choice. Perhaps 5-Card Stud would be better, but I haven't found much on 5-Card Stud in the books.

Anyways, I am looking to get started in poker with a particular eye to learning how to calculate the probabilities associated with the game. I am wondering which game would be best for me to start out with. One that would lay a foundation for me to build on.

Thanks

[lunchmeat]

Limit Hold 'em is a good place to start in my opinion because A) you can always find a game and B) you get a lot of hands in per session.

I remember an essay Mike Caro wrote where he said the best games for learning overall poker skills are limit hold 'em and limit 5 card draw, but I don't remember his reasoning.

[SheridanCat]

If you're really interested in probabilities and odds, start by learning Texas Holdem and get Mike Petriv's "Hold'em's Odd(s) Book." It's probably available from Conjelco.

You won't find 5 card stud spread in a casino, and 5 card draw will be hard to find.

Regards,

T

[Mung]

Many thanks to those who responded.

Yes, I am really interested in probabilities and odds, and not so much in which games I would find in a casino. A want to learn the basics of calculating odds with simpler games first, and then move on to more complex games. You'll probably find me in the Probabilities Forum here more than any other, hehe.

It occurred to me that, for the first two cards at least, the odds in 5-Card Stud and in Texas Hold'em must be quite similar. Not sure from there on out though. That's why I am here to learn.

T, thanks for the book suggestion.

I found ConJelCo here:

http://www.conjelco.com/

regards

[Mung]

[ QUOTE ]
...get Mike Petriv's "Hold'em's Odd(s) Book."

[/ QUOTE ]
ConJelCo doesn't appear to have it. Search on Petriv on amazon.com turns up no entries. Any suggestions?

Thanks

[rayrns]

Try Barnes Noble. www.bn.com (http://www.bn.com) Go to the used book section and type in Petriv. It is about $53 plus S&H.

[HUSKER'66]

go here.....

www.gamblersbook.com (http://www.gamblersbook.com)

Click on: "Catalog index by category"

Click "search"
and type Mike Petriv

Hold'ems Odd Book-$24.95 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Welcome to the forum.

[Ilovephysics]

I've always liked Omaha and its variations. I think even a beginner can benefit from playing Omaha against bad players... Possibly moreso than a beginner playing Texas Hold-em against bad players, all else being equal...

Suspected (but possibly suspect) reasoning:

1) People often confuse Omaha with Texas Hold-em, but with "more cards". You have an added advantage over these folks simply because you look at a hand like 7s7dTcTh differently than they will.

2) Bad players chase second-best and third-best hands frequently...

3) A good understanding of calculating odds goes a long way.

[Mung]

I think I agree with you that Omaha is a great game to be learning at this time. I also think that those who learn to play correctly have a decided advantage and are also more likely to play against people who lack proper knowledge.

But I am not so sure it is the best game to START with as a game for learning how to calculate the statistical probabilities. For example, how might it be relevant to seven stud or hold'em, where you only get two hole cards?

I want to construct a solid foundation, and then build on that.


Some figures on Omaha:

Over 270,000 four-card combinations.

Every four card combination (starting hand) has six two-card combinations.

Every five-card combination (the board) has ten three-card combinations.

That's 60 five-card combinations (3 from the board, two from the hand).

A lot of room for people to go wrong /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[bdypdx]

Do you "like" playing poker? Do you enjoy playing the game? Do you enjoy other card games?

Have you even played poker? You say you know the rules for the games you "might" be interested in playing. But you didn't say that you've actually ever played poker.

Set up a home game. Play for nickels and dimes. Set a range of games. One group I know only plays "straight" poker, ie 5-draw, 5-stud, 7-stud, omaha, holdem, etc. Another group plays all of that, plus some pretty crazy wild games. Host a home game with just the games you find interesting as an experiment.

Anyway, I don't mean to be rude. I'd suggest trying home games. I play with some older college professors who just love 5-card draw and 5-card stud. They know the exact odds and exactly how to play the game. On the other hand, the Seattle area spreads many, many holdem games.

Holdem is the game of the moment. Learn holdem.

[Mung]

[ QUOTE ]
I play with some older college professors who just love 5-card draw and 5-card stud. They know the exact odds and exactly how to play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where did they learn, and where and how do I learn?

I have played poker. I like playing poker. I enjoy other card games. I have played hundreds of games of Pinochle, Hearts and Spades. My favorite card game is no doubt Hearts, but it could very well become some form or other of poker.

Games I "might" like to play means ones that I prefer. I prefer Hold'em, Stud, and Omaha to 5-Card Draw, for example. Perhaps this is ONLY because I do not understand the probabilities associated with 5-Card Draw.

My goal is to UNDERSTAND the underlying probabilities and to learn principles that I can apply to ALL forms of Poker. It seems to me that there are certain forms of poker that it would be better to learn first wrt calculating probabilities (not rules). I know the rules of the games. I want a deeper understanding. I want to start with understanding the underlying probabilities that are the basis for many decisions in the game.

I can play poker all I want without understanding the best choices to make and why to make those choices. I am desiring to move beyond fun and into understanding.

Thanks.

[bdypdx]

A friend likes this one:
HOLD'EM'S ODDS BOOK
by Mike Petriv

http://www.gamblersbook.com/cgi/shop/cashcart.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=475401.htm&O RDER_ID=290835478

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
what I do not know is correct strategy. I am particularly interested at this time in understanding the odds and probabilities realting to various poker games.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about poker is sometimes the game is a science, and sometimes it is an art. Becoming a poker scientist is easy, and to learn that aspect any limit game will do. I would recommend holdem because so much is written about that game.

If you want to become an acomplished poker artist then you want excell in No limit play. Pot Limt Omaha/Holdem are the best games to learn if you want to excell in both the science and art of poker.

Stu

[Mung]

I hate buying anything over the internet, except from amazon.com, lol. But I think I'll make an exception in this case. Thanks to those who have recommended this book, and thanks to you for the link.

regards

[Mung]

Thanks for the tips Stu.

I think it makes a great deal of sense to learn the science first. After all, what advanced artist sets out to paint without knowing what you get when you mix blue and yellow.

But one does not jump right in to calculus (normally). Isn't there some poker game that would be best for a beginner to use to learn how to do the probabilities, and then use that as a basis upon which to expand?

I was thinking Five-Card Stud, since it seems such a simple game, but perhaps a flop game like hold'em would be just as good. After all, you start out with two cards in each game, and the rest of the cards are shared. You don't have to look at your opponent's cards.

But the difference here is the number of hole cards. It must be simpler to calculate the odds of a single hole card than two.

I do already know the basics of how to play each game. But there must be some basis in mathematics for the decisions we make in those games, and this is what I am lookingto learn.

For example: In 5-Card Stud, your opponent's up (door?) card is an Ace. You don't have an Ace or a pair. Do you fold? Why?

You have an Ace down and a King up. Do you stay in? Why? What are the odds that he has one of the remaining two aces as his hole card?

You have a pair of dueces. There are three cards up now with one more to come and everyone is still in. No one shows a pair on the board, but what are the odds that your dueces are going to win?

etc ...

Any thoughts anyone?

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
But the difference here is the number of hole cards. It must be simpler to calculate the odds of a single hole card than two.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking is flawed. It does not matter how many hole cards you have, what matters is how many unknown cards there are and of those cards, how many will make your hand(or make someone elses hand).

In holdem, the number of unknown cards is a constant figure for each street regardless of the actions of the players(assuming the players do not muck their cards face up). In stud, its harder to calculate the odds because the number of known and unknown cards keeps changing based upon the actions of the players.


Does this make sense?

Stu

[Mung]

Yes it does, thanks!

[Ilovephysics]

Yes, point taken. I didn't quite get the initial gist of your post.

[Mung]

Well, I went into a local casino and bought into a game of $2-$4 Hold'em. My first time ever to play poker in a casino (Have never played it online either).

I bought in for $100 and was up over $80 but gave it all back :P. Perhaps I should have left when I was ahead?

I played for maybe eight hours or more. I left with $18 fewer bucks than I went in with. Taking into account the tokes, I came out very close to even in the game then.

All told, I'm pleased with the cost of my first real poker lesson.

[Mung]

Well, I went out for my second night of poker.

One player at my table won a jackpot with quad Jacks.

Then I got to see a player lose with Aces full to quad Sevens, and we had another Jackpot winner.

This all happened within a short space of time, as we were still on the same dealer.

A short time later these folks took their winnings and left, and the table was closed down for two few players.

I left up $26 after only a couple hours of play, if that, so that was good.

I went to another place down the street and bought in to a game there.

I lost to a straight draw on the river. I had Jacks and Queens going in to the last card. a ten fell and as it turns out, two players had A-K. They split the pot. Another player and I both had Queens and Jacks, so we both ended up the losers. We would have split the pot but for the ten on the last card.

I lost to a flush draw on the river.

I lost to another straight draw on the river.

I lost when my opponenet got his second pair on the river to beat my high hand.

I had pocket Jacks and lost to pocket Queens. I think this was the only loss that wasn't a bad beat.

Anyways, I left after my buy-in was gone. All in all a tough game. I really think that I played correctly, if that is any consolation. I had high hand going into the river card on most of those losses. The only thing I think I could have done was fold unless I knew I could not be beat on the river, and I don't think that's any way to play poker.

Ah well.