"You sure do checkraise alot"

[Jezebel]

Same game as I posted earlier. I'm in the small blind with K /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Another straddle bet is on the table. 8 PEOPLE LIMP FOR $6 BEHIND THE STRADDLE!! Very unlike this crowd for no one to raise this many limpers. I call $5 more to see a flop.

(17sb) Flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check and it checks around to the button. He bets and I immediately checkraise. Groans come from several at the table. It is cold called in 4 spots including the button. DOH!

(14 BB) Turn comes Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check and kind of chuckle thinking to myself that my isolation attempt didn't work quite the way I planned. It gets checked to the button, and he sort of looks at me with a knowing smile on his face and checks. I ask him, "So you're not going to let me go for the elusive hat trick, huh?" He just smiles as if he has escaped my trap.

The river brings the T /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I decide to bet my bottom pair into the field and see what happens. It gets folded all the way around to the button who thinks for a while and finally mucks. I drag the pot and do something I never do and table my hand (probably a mistake). Lots of grumbling among the natives.

Thoughts on how I played this hand are appreciated.

[Louie Landale]

Lets not write home to Mom about K2s in SB for almost a full bet.

The problem with the isolation play is [1] all the cards are small so many players have two-over-cards [2] the pot is already pretty big and you should expect players to (incorrectly) draw to their over-cards.

Pretty routine check on the turn. Don't bother with the false trash-talk in the bigger games.

Pretty routine steal on the river getting 15:1 against nobody who likes their hand enough to bet the river. However, this is a pretty bad steal in the bigger games since they can pretty much tell you don't have much and they feel no shame in "paying it off" with a pair of 3s.

- Louie

If you ARE going to show the hand then practice tossing at the dealers hand as she pushes the pot, and have her "accidentally" turn it over for you.

[Jezebel]

Louie,

Thanks for the reply. You don't like the limp getting most likely just a shy better than 9 to 1 on the call and only the BB and straddle bet yet to act? I would have thought that this was a sound call.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the isolation play is [1] all the cards are small so many players have two-over-cards [2] the pot is already pretty big and you should expect players to (incorrectly) draw to their over-cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I was hoping to get it headsup with the button, but should I be upset when overcards "incorrectly" call two cold if I'm ahead at that point? In theory, shouldn't I be routing for them to call with incorrect odds?

[ QUOTE ]
Don't bother with the false trash-talk in the bigger games.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually, and didn't plan on it this time. I had been doing alot of checkraising in this game and I could see gears turning in the buttons head wondering if I was planning a double checkraise (which definetly was not the plan). We are friends and the comment was totally in fun, but it did give me the idea to bet the river, when he confirmed that was what he was thinking.

I know I shouldn't have tabled the hand, but I never have tabled a sucessful bluff and was curious how it would feel. It was done mostly in fun, partly in advertisement and a tiny bit in BWAHAHAHAHA. I know I shouldn't have done it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[CrackerZack]

I don't mind the SB limp after the entire world. Flop is fine. turn is fine. River bet is pretty slim considering he's first to act with 4 left to act.

[Louie Landale]

Looks like we agree on the turn check! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Louie

[Louie Landale]

The flush draw part of K2s DOES have some implied odds features which makes in a candidate for consideration in paying full price (such as calling on the button). However, the K2 part is DEFINATELY not a hand you want to play against any number for full price since its "implied odds" are bad unless he opponents play attrociously after the flop (meaning they'll let you draw cheap but give you action when you make something).

I'm suggesting that "getting 9:1" against 8 players is a COMPLETELY different beast then "getting 9:1" against 4, such as happens when faced with a raise in the BB. This is because beating 4 players is a LOT easier than beating 8. If you must pay full-price PF your hand must either [1] be going to actually win more often than the number of callers, or [2] have great implied odds.

The above is true. The following is opinion. I doubt that K2s's flush-draw implied odds overcomes its unsuited dog-status in this hand, especially when out of position. Somewhat mitigated is the fact that you only have to pay 75% of full price. As with most sub-marginal hands you can often play it if YOU will pick up significant ground post-flop against the current line up of players.

As for the over-cards: this is the situation where I believe the "incorrect" overcard callers hurts both you AND the callers; since their combined outs have much LESS over-lap than when you have the big pair; especially since many of your "wins" must be when nobody makes anything on the turn and river AND nobody tries to steal it from you. If you are in a reasonably lively group you cannot win this hand without improvement, even if your paltry pair is currently the "best hand" right now (which, BTW, is unlikely).

Anyway, it bodes well that you are thinking about your image and thinking about what they are thinking. Steals like this will come up once or twice a night when you do that.

- Louie

[CrackerZack]

If the river was something like a 4, I'd like the bet more, but that T on the river is just too "in the playing zone" for a ton of limpers for this bluff to succeed even 7%, IMO. Its rare that I don't agree with you so I figured I should post on this one.

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like we agree on the turn check! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree with PF being very thin also, in retrospect, considering it was straddled and he has to worry about a raise from BB and straddle plus his implied odds are already hurt.

[Louie Landale]

Didn't bother to re-read the original, but if there are 7 opponents there is about a (42choose14) divided by (45choose14) = 30% chance nobody has a T. Getting 13:1 for basically a 7:3 against chance is pretty good.

- Louie

[dirty_dan]

But getting 9:1 vs 8 means there's 4 more people to pay you off and make up the implied odds you were missing preflop.

Easier to make X bets from 8 people than from 4 people.

[lil']

I can't say I agree with the flop CR, although I understand the reasoning behind it. There will be multiple callers, and there are 5 cards in the deck will help you, while there are many more that will make a better hand for someone else by the turn.

[Louie Landale]

Its also easier to PAY off 8 players than 4. The number of players is a distant secondary consern. If YOU have good implied odds because there are 8 opponents then surely each of THEM has good implied odds for the same reason. You ALL cannot have good implied odds; something has to give.

To get get good implied odds, either [1] the opponents have to be terrible or [2] your hand has to reasonably often make a very strong hand that beats other good hands that are also likely.

To get BAD implied odds, either [1] you play terrible, or [2] your hand tends to improve to "winners" that your prefer to show down for nothing. Weak trouble hands fall into this category: they make winners fairly often but often end up reluctantly calling big bets later in the round.

You don't make flushes that often. K2o is DEFINATELY a "weak trouble hand": making a pair of Ks suggests bad implied odds since you will lose more often than you win with it; but you'll still often show it down.

So with this hand your good implied odds must come from the terrible play of the opponents. To get that, YOU must be confident you can usually distinquish the times your hand is good and push that advantage aggressively, or tell when the hand is beat and pass or play defensively.

- Louie

[bigpooch]

What was wrong with facing the hand? Okay, you're making
some of them feel stupid! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And don't forget, many of them won't learn a thing!