Do I want to knock people out or keep them in?

[balkii]

Party 3/6

I have 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG+2. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, I limp, MP raises, blinds folds, all call.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

2 checks to me. OK now here is my question. My default play here in the past was always to bet. This is of course because we will assume the PFR will raise on this flop, which will accomplish two things for me: 1) knock people out and protect my set on this super-drawy board*, 2) give me the option of either 3-betting on the flop or going for a CR on the turn.

* this is a flawed argument, correct?

Recently however I read a post that changed the way I think about this situation. I don't want to knock people out, because anyone who is drawing live to beat me will stick around anyways no matter how many bets it is, but the ones drawing dead to pair outs and such will fold. Of course I want to charge everyone no matter what.

Back to the hand. I check, PFR bets, both EPs call, I raise. All call. Some rags fell on the the next two streets and I bet HU vs PFR and he called me down with AK.

So this check-raise seems to be the better play here, especially because if this PFR wasn't such a pansy he would have 3-bet the flop, and I would have still been left with the options my old play would give me, that is I could cap the flop or even better go for the turn CR.


So ...any thoughts?

[mmanne]

I like the way that you played it. If you are pretty sure that your opponent will bet, I think a CR is a great move here. I wouldn't really call it letting people stay, I'd term it getting the most cash in the pot with the best hand. I don't think those 4 flush draws will go away for 1 or 2 bets, so check-raise and charge them the most.

But yeah, if he would have 3 bet, it would have been the perfect time for a double CR, one on the flop, one on the turn

matt

[Mike Gallo]

Bet the flop and hopefully the preflop raiser will raise you. Smooth call his raise and prepare to..

Check raise the turn.

Value bet the river if the flush or straight card doesnt hit.

[butters]

my understanding of the theory of poker is that you want your opponents making the biggest mistakes possible compared to the strength of your hand. i'd rather have a flush drawing calling two cold here than calling one and then one more when they've got better pot odds.

agreed, they're coming anyway, but why not make their odds as poor as possible?

[scott415]

hey all. my first contribution to the forum:

Originally i'd written a whole post questioning your play on the grounds that it was dangerous to bet the flop and run the risk of just getting called, thereby thwarting your 3-bet plan, and then, even worse, having little or no chance of getting a raise in on the expensive streets. But just before i clicked on "continue", i went back over your hand description and noticed the very key qualifier of "we will assume the PFR will raise on the flop". At any rate, i still think i would've bet the flop, hoping for a raise by PFR, which i'd smooth call, and then pop him on the turn.
I don't like three-betting the flop, even if you have the chance to do so, if for no other reason than that you're gonna give away your hand and end up missing bets (read: checkraise) on the turn. Or am i just not seeing the best way to maximize a set here?

On another note, though, something in your post raised in my mind a general question about playing top pair on flop. You say the PFR in your case was something of a "pansy" for failing to three bet the flop. Can you explain this a little bit? I suppose the pros of this play, from his perspective, are that it keeps him in control of the hand, possibly buys him a free card on the turn, and in certain situations might get a slightly better hand than his to fold. But i can't say that my impulse would be to make this play if i were in his shoes, mainly because when someone (esp. a preflop raiser) checkraises me on the flop, i'm sensing either overpair, small two pair, or strong drawing hand--but most likely not a hand that i'm gonna beat. But does the correctness of the play have more to do with sending a message that you will not be bullied into a defensive position for the rest of the hand, or in future hands? Or am i just missing something else?

Thanks for any comments.
Scott

[ordnaryjam]

[ QUOTE ]
my understanding of the theory of poker is that you want your opponents making the biggest mistakes possible compared to the strength of your hand. i'd rather have a flush drawing calling two cold here than calling one and then one more when they've got better pot odds.

agreed, they're coming anyway, but why not make their odds as poor as possible?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your right on the thoery, you want your opponents to make mistakes, but with your bet and the assumed Mp's raise the two ep limpers are getting 6-1 on their cold call. This is not a mistake at all if they are on a flush draw (while it isnt as good as getting 10-1).
However if they have a Top Pair weak kicker, or mid or bottom pair they will likely fold to two bets. Once they have called one bet from the mp the have created a large mistake against your hand. When you check-raise they often make another mistake in calling.
If they make it to the turn and happen to hit a second best hand (like two pair or trips) you will get paid off. True occasionally they will runner runner ful houses but this is rare, and you will more than make up for it with the bets you gain.
This is not a hand that needs protection. You dont have a huge field, and there is no way you can get a flush or openended str8 draw to fold. essentially the only hand you can make it incorrect to call with would be a gutshot.
this is exactly the way i would play this hand- except very occasionally go for the checkraise on the turn instead of the flop if the ep players go to the river to often.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
hey all. my first contribution to the forum:

Originally i'd written a whole post questioning your play on the grounds that it was dangerous to bet the flop and run the risk of just getting called, thereby thwarting your 3-bet plan, and then, even worse, having little or no chance of getting a raise in on the expensive streets. But just before i clicked on "continue", i went back over your hand description and noticed the very key qualifier of "we will assume the PFR will raise on the flop". At any rate, i still think i would've bet the flop, hoping for a raise by PFR, which i'd smooth call, and then pop him on the turn.
I don't like three-betting the flop, even if you have the chance to do so, if for no other reason than that you're gonna give away your hand and end up missing bets (read: checkraise) on the turn. Or am i just not seeing the best way to maximize a set here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt I would 3-bet the flop, and would most likely go for the turn CR if I bet and got raised. It all depends on hows the game is going, i guess.


[ QUOTE ]
On another note, though, something in your post raised in my mind a general question about playing top pair on flop. You say the PFR in your case was something of a "pansy" for failing to three bet the flop. Can you explain this a little bit? I suppose the pros of this play, from his perspective, are that it keeps him in control of the hand, possibly buys him a free card on the turn, and in certain situations might get a slightly better hand than his to fold. But i can't say that my impulse would be to make this play if i were in his shoes, mainly because when someone (esp. a preflop raiser) checkraises me on the flop, i'm sensing either overpair, small two pair, or strong drawing hand--but most likely not a hand that i'm gonna beat.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I have AK and the flop comes K-high, I love having a chance to 3-bet. Its nearly always the best hand, even when someone else raises. When somebody caps, then I'll start to worry about being second best. There are many hands that I would check-raise with here, and many more that some online players could find. For instance, I would CR with 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and other draws. I might occasionally CR with something like 88 or KQ, to possibly get a feel for PFRs hand.

[ QUOTE ]
But does the correctness of the play have more to do with sending a message that you will not be bullied into a defensive position for the rest of the hand, or in future hands? Or am i just missing something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is also a big part of it. I find a lot of players who are very passive and might CR something like 67 here but go into check-call mode if I 3-bet. So for 1 extra small bet, I stay in control of the hand, and keep em guessing in later hands.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop and hopefully the preflop raiser will raise you. Smooth call his raise and prepare to..

Check raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok this WAS my routine play but why do you feel this is a better way to do it than how I played it? If I bet out I run the risk another poster mentioned of him possibly not raising, and if he does raise I risk knocking out players drawing dead to my set...

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet the river if the flush or straight card doesnt hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

MG, I would value bet this river even if the 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or T /images/graemlins/heart.gif fell, wouldn't you?

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
my understanding of the theory of poker is that you want your opponents making the biggest mistakes possible compared to the strength of your hand. i'd rather have a flush drawing calling two cold here than calling one and then one more when they've got better pot odds.

agreed, they're coming anyway, but why not make their odds as poor as possible?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well If I CR they have to pay two bets to see the turn. If I bet and PFR raises the flop, they have to pay two bets to see the turn. But when I play it like this I also get calls from people making huge mistakes, like the guy holding A7 or something.


An extra question regarding this hand: Suppose UTG+1 has T9. If I check, PFR bets the flop, UTG+1 has an easy call with his gutshot. When I raise, again, he has an easy call. But when you break it down, he is still making a mistake putting 2 bets in on the flop. Now suppose he would have folded if it was 2 bets cold to him. Dont I make more money this way?

[steveyz]

Isn't there also a chance that the PFR will let it check through? It all depends on your read on the PFR. Does he always bet when checked to after raising pre-flop? Does he always raise when bet into after raising pre-flop? Will he 3-bet the flop with TPTK?

I'd say against an aggressive opponent, you should bet out hoping to get raised and smoothcall. You do run the risk of knocking out players drawing dead, but I don't think that risk is great. The flop is K high, so the only possible overcard is an Ace. I'm not sure any decent player would even call one bet with just that, and if some calling station does call with it, chances are he'll call 2 bets too.

I'd the say only hand that you risk knocking out is a gut-shot, which is definitely not drawing dead to your set.

Also, this way, you get to charge any flush draws or OESDs an extra bet on the turn, when are they getting much poorer odds.

[rharless]

On the flop, I think betting out or C/Ring are both good options, but I definitely would only C/R here if you are SURE the pfr will bet. Normally I will bet out and hope the PFR raises. Very few people will fold for two if they would have called one on this board. KTo is usually not folding to two bets. Hearts or str8 draws are definitely calling for two bets.

After I bet, I will either 3-bet or sometimes call preparing to C/R the turn. The more people that call him cold if he raises, the more likely I am to 3-bet. Normally I will bet/3-bet.

If he raised AQ or JJ or something like that preflop, he could very well check the flop... so I prefer to bet out and make sure I get those other players' chips into the pot.

When you flop a set on a drawy board, it's not a question of knocking people out or keeping them in... on these types of boards, people are usually in or out regardless of how much money they have to call on the flop. It's a question of how to get the most money into the pot with the hugely favorite and well disguised hand. I did some calcs recently and determined that when I flop a set, I win 82% of the time. Just get as much money in there as you can, and don't underestimate the number of hands which will call two cold on drawy boards like this.

[Mike Gallo]

MG, I would value bet this river even if the 5 or T fell, wouldn't you?

Depending on how the flop and turn played out yes.

If I bet out I run the risk another poster mentioned of him possibly not raising, and if he does raise I risk knocking out players drawing dead to my set

True, however I do not mind winning a big pot there, or getting heads up with the preflop raiser.

[butters]

i see your point.

in the original scenario, the board was pretty coordinated, with both reasonable flush and straight draws possible. i've probably got the best hand on the flop with my set. my usual line here is to make it as unprofitable as possible for them to draw out on me (maximize my chances of winning.) i don't mind taking down a smaller pot on the flop or turn if possible.

On a less coordinated board, i play more towards building a pot, trapping players for multiple bets, etc.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I'm with MG on the attempt to smoothcall/turn checkraise here.

If the flop isn't raised behind me, I'll lead the turn as well, and 3-bet it if raised.

[Joe Tall]

Value bet the river if the flush or straight card doesnt hit.

Granted, we need more actions through the hand but I think you should be saying, 'Value be the river if the flush or straight card does hit.'

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Schmed]

your bets are for value. People, especially at ll, will call you down with bottom pair. You'll often get multi way action with some of the callers calling dead.

I've learned without a 4 flush or 4 str8 to put in as many bets as possible with a set. I bet out, I raise the flop, if ep bet out call a raise, check if you think they will bet the turn, and C/R.

[balkii]

True, however I do not mind winning a big pot there,

Well I certainly do. When I have the best hand and the best draw - I wanna go the whole way.

[balkii]

An extra question regarding this hand: Suppose UTG+1 has T9. If I check, PFR bets the flop, UTG+1 has an easy call with his gutshot. When I raise, again, he has an easy call. But when you break it down, he is still making a mistake putting 2 bets in on the flop. Now suppose he would have folded if it was 2 bets cold to him. Dont I make more money this way?

Can anyone please answer this question?

[colgin]

rharless,

I think you hit the nail righton the head here. Hero has huge pot eqity so his flop play should depend on how he is going to get as much money in as possible. If PFR will bet and people will cold call behind PFR, then Hero should bet out and then three-bet PFR's raise. If people behind PFR who are drawing dead or near it will fold for two then I think the C/R is the right way to go so long as Hero is sure that PFR will bet. I think that on this board against a typical player it is highly likely that PFR will bet here if checked to.

All the best.

Colgin

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I also like the bet and smooth-call the raise on the flop, followed by the CR on the turn. I'd value bet the river even if a flush or straight hits, and sadly pay off the raiser whose flush hit.

[Clarkmeister]

I haven't read the other responses, but you definitely want to checkraise the flop in this specific spot.