Playing over my head?

[Sandwich]

I had just won over $80 after placing in both a 2-table and single-table sit n go. So I thought I'd take a shot at a 2/4 game, which is a higher limit than I'd ever played before (I'm used to .25/.50 and .50/1 ring games). So, at the 2 / 4 table I was holding my own, staying just about even for a good hour or so, until the hand I describe below. Ugh. It's hands like these that make me want to take a very long break from poker -- until I learn how to read the board better.

PokerStars 2 / 4 Limit Table -- 10 players. The table is tighter than I'm used to at the lower limits, and the players seem to be pretty decent, except for one loose fish on the button. EP is playing with a dreadfully short stack which will put him all in on the Turn in this hand.

I am in MP. Dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Four callers (UTG, EP, me, and LP) until Button raises, BB calls the raise, UTG folds, EP and I call the raise, LP re-raises (!), button calls, BB folds, both EP and I call the re-raise. So, we've got a lot of bets in the pot and four of us seeing the flop (EP, me, LP and button), which comes:

5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Okay, I'm thinking I have an inside straight draw, gotta see the next card cheaply. EP checks, I check, everyone else checks.

Turn comes: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I made my straight! EP bets, I raise, LP calls, Button folds, EP re-raises all-in. Both LP and I call the re-raise.

River is 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Is a full house possible? I seriously doubt that someone would stay in at this point with a deuce and another low card. So, I bet, LP raises, I 3-bet, LP caps, I call.

LP shows K6 offsuit for a better straight. I lose almost $40 on that one hand.

I can't believe that after making my inside straight, it never occurred to me that someone else had a better straight. I was so sure that I we were at least going to split the pot each with an Ace in our hand. Now, first of all I know it's my fault for not even recognizing that a 6 would beat me. That's just dumb, stupid beginner inexperience at reading the board. But, looking back, what the heck was Ep doing limp raising preflop with a K6o????

As I said, it's hands like these that make me realize how much I have to learn about this game.

I'd appreciate any comments or advice about how the hand was played, or tips on reading the board, or bankroll management (was it stupid for me to play at this level?) after winning at a couple of sit n gos?), or ways to stay sane after taking a loss like that.

Thanks.

[Kluddeludde]

That's a tough beat and horribly played preflop by the LP-player. However, when LP limp-reraise I would seriously consider folding. You are basically trying to hit your flush here. A limp-reraise screams AA (or possibly KK), and you can probably expect some action on the flop, so if you hit your four-flush you probably wont see the next two cards cheaply. As for your straight. The bottom end of a straight, especially with only one of the cards in your hand is a tough hand to play. However, since LP limp-reraised preflop, I would safely assume that he has the low end as well. But, you accomplish nothing by reraising him on the river. He will call (or reraise) with hands that will beat you (or split), but probably fold (unless he's maniac) with hands that you beat. So just call his raise on the river. Or, better yet (at least in my opinion) check/call, for the same reasons outlined above.

For the question whether it was correct to play 2/4 after winning some sit'n'go, I would say no. You will have a higher variability at a higher limit and you may easily lose those 80 bucks after a single session. Play some more .50/1 and build your bankroll, then you can move up.

ok, how about staying sane. I have developed my own strategy. I bang my head against the keyboard a couple of times, run a few laps around the house, bang some more and then I take a break for a week or two. Always does the trick.

Good luck in the future!

Kludde

[LetsRock]

You encountered a classic trap with that board. The wheel straight is often beat by someone with a 6. In this case, you would have expected to see a 66 (not a K6), but you have to be aware of this possibility.

The K6 didn't give you much information until the river, so I don't know how much you could have done about it, but you should be aware of the possibility.

FWI, $80 is not really enough to play a 2/4 game with. If you're not used to the limit, it would be very easy for you to play a little too tight because you're protecting your stack too much. I personally don't have a problem that you "gave it a peek", but you probably shouldn't move up quite so quick. Given the limits you normally play, a 1/2 game would have been a better choice to "see how it goes".

While the 300 x BB is a good standard for your bankroll for long term consideration, I find that 100 x SB is a good size for a given session: If I'm playing 2/4, I will have at least $200 available for that session. This should give me ample opportunity to let the cards find me. If they don't find me inside of that boundary, I figure it's not my day and call it a session.

I don't know how the experts would agree with my 100 x SB theory, but it works for me.

[Louie Landale]

5 years ago I would have bet a LOT of money that I would NEVER hear someone suggest that a 2/4 game was "a higher limit game" and that the players play so much better than in the "small games". Oh well, that's just me! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Four fundamental mistakes that I could see [1] didn't realize a 6 beat you [2] Couldn't "imagine" someone playing a hand that could make a small flull house. 52 may be unlikely but not impossible, but slow-playing a set of 3s is certainly realistic. [3] Could think of no hand that YOU could beat but you capped it anyway, figuring for a split [4] Figuring this loss was a very rare event. Nope; get used to it.

Play turbo holdem for a while until you are more comfortable with the mechanics and can bet it confidently.

- Louie

[ordnaryjam]

[ QUOTE ]
or ways to stay sane after taking a loss like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most important aspect of your post, figuring out bankroll and not capping the, how do the french put it?, idiot end of the strait are pretty easy lessons to learn. I played my first 10-20 game last weekend and i was up 150 bucks a half hour before the casino closed- i was down 240 by the time it closed after haveing gone to war with AKs versus A6o in a kill pot, and then had three other playable hands (TT, QJs, KTs) with good position hit nothing. The next day im sitting at 10-20 again and i get stuck 300 pretty quick. Two years ago this would mean tilt.
Now it means a leak, a bottle of water and checking on how my friend is doing over at the other table. I sit back down and finish up 450 over the next two days. This sort of thing works for me, and it is the biggest improvement in my game.

[Inthacup]

1. Raise preflop
2. You're playing in a game where a guy will 3-bet preflop with K6 unsuited and you're wondering if you're playing over your head? Maybe you're playing over your bankroll, but you're certainly not outclassed.
3. Considering that you have the low end of a straight on a paired board, I would probably just call the LP's river raise. I would think I'm tying him at best.



As I said, it's hands like these that make me realize how much I have to learn about this game.

What you have to learn will only come with experience. Reading the board will eventually become automatic. Don't kill yourself over the mistake. Just concentrate harder on the board. For the first hour of each session, try to think of the best possible hand at each point in the hand. For ex.


Preflop: 'AA'
FLop: 5 3 4 '6 7'
Turn: 2 '6 7'
River:2 '2 2'



After that becomes automatic, think of the top 3 hands that the board could possible make.


Do that for a few weeks and you'll be a machine.


GL



Cup

[BugsBunny]

Raise preflop with ATs into 2 EP callers? First in I raise for sure, but with 2 EP limpers I would usually limp behind as well.

[jasonHoldEm]

Hi sandwich,

I remember my first tough beat at 2/4...I flopped the nut straight, the flush got there on the turn, and the board paired on the river...and yes I didn't see any of this and kept betting what I thought were the nuts into four opponents (one who had flopped the straight with me, one who had the nut flush, and one who had flopped a set and rivered the full house).

It was a really ugly (and painful) expereince, especially because it was the largest pot I'd ever been involved with and I felt so stupid afterwards.

I think you'll learn that mistakes like this are a good thing, provided you can learn from them. We all fail to read the board correctly occasionally...we're human and can easily get distracted by the excitement of a hand. Just take steps to minimize this error as much as possible. For example, before you take any action on a hand quickly identify what the 1st - 5th nut hands are and where does your hand fit into those nut hands. This will probably take a little while at first, but eventually it will become automatic.

Practice makes perfect, but we all make mistakes at one time or another...don't be afraid to keep taking shots at higher limits, I personally find that playing at a higher limit usually brings my mistakes to the forefront more quickly than at my normal level of play...yes I might lose more money making a single mistake at a higher limit, but considering I never would have noticed it at my regular limit I lose less money in the long run.

Peace,
J

[Inthacup]

Raise preflop with ATs into 2 EP callers?


How can you raise into someone you have position on?


First in I raise for sure, but with 2 EP limpers I would usually limp behind as well.


Why? I'll explain my reasoning further, but I'd like to hear your logic first.



Cup

[steveyz]

I think this depends on how good those EP players are. If they are fish, then you have to raise. If one of the EP players is a tough player that you think might have limped in with a very good hand, then that would be reason to just limp. I'd say at most online 2/4 tables, you're better off assuming your opponents aren't very good and raise here.

[Schmed]

I haven't read anybody elses yet but from what I see you took a beat that wasn't all that bad and you're questioning if you are in over your head??? If you really are questioning it from that then yes you are in over your head.

[GuyOnTilt]

Raise preflop.

Don't 3-bet the river.

GoT

[BugsBunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop with ATs into 2 EP callers?


How can you raise into someone you have position on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad terminology /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

First in I raise for sure, but with 2 EP limpers I would usually limp behind as well.


Why? I'll explain my reasoning further, but I'd like to hear your logic first.
Cup

[/ QUOTE ]

I started putting a reply together but changed my mind halfway through. It actually makes sense to raise to EP limpers with this hand. If they had a hand that you're in real trouble with they would probably have raised (AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) They may have a lower pocket pair which puts you in a coin flip slightly biased in their favor. They may also have AJo which dominates you. Other than that you're in pretty decent shape.

So yes, raise. Although it plays well multihanded as well I think it plays better shorthanded. The one exception would be known good players that can limp with things like AA or Ak and play for a limp re-raise. If someone like that limped in front of you you may be better off limping.