Just moved up to 2/4 and need help (long)

[Guido]

Hi all,

Two weeks ago I moved up to 2/4 at Paradise, in the beginning it went pretty well but a few hours ago I had a 60BB downfall in about an hour. I played pretty well in the beginning but in the end I had my first tilt ever and I quited. Almost everything went wrong. I will move back to good old 1/2 and win some back and then start again. I'm going to post all the Axs and Axo hands I was involved in. Perhaps I will post the rest as well tonight. I will criticize my play and please correct me when I'm wrong. Don't be too surprised when I hate myself /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

<font color="blue"> Hand 1 </font>
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in button, folded to me, I raise, SB calls.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Check, bet, fold. Nothing wrong with that /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

<font color="blue"> Hand 2 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in CO-1. UTG + 1 raises, MP cold calls, I 3-bet, SB calls, UTG + 1 and MP call.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Checked to me, I bet. Good? Bad? I don't know... SB calls, UTG + 1 calls, MP raises, I and the rest call.

Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

MP bets out, I call, SB raise, UTG + 1 folds, MP calls, I fold. I think this was a bad call but I'm not sure, at that time I thought my 6 outs were good.

<font color="blue"> Hand 3 </font>
UTG with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, I raise, UTG + 2 cold calls, rest fold.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, UTG + 2 raises, I re-raise /images/graemlins/confused.gif, UTG +2 caps, I call /images/graemlins/confused.gif. I remember this one very well and this was at the end of the session when I was tilting /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Nevertheless I'm very poor in HU games and I need to improve that a lot. In this hand I just couldn't believe I missed the flop again and the cold caller might have hit something.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, he calls /images/graemlins/confused.gif

River: 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, he raises, I fold. I know I suck... /images/graemlins/grin.gif I really need to improve my short-handed game but this hand was just terrible. Could have saved 3.5BB here...

<font color="blue"> Hand 4 </font>
SB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG + 2 and MP limp, button raises, I call (fold?, 3-bet?), BB and the rest call.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG + 2 bets out, button calls, I fold.

<font color="blue"> Hand 5 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO-1. UTG and UTG + 1 limp, I raise, rest fold, limpers call.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG bets out, UTG + 1 and I fold.

<font color="blue"> Hand 6 </font>
Another tilt hand HU. A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif in SB. Button limps, I raise, BB folds, button calls.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

River: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, button calls.

I'm going to jump in a second /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Again could have saved about 3 or more BB.

<font color="blue"> Hand 7 </font>
MP with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG + 1 limps, I raise, BB and limper call.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, both fold.

<font color="blue"> Hand 8 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. UTG raises, UTG + 1 cold calls, SB calls, I call.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets out, I fold.

<font color="blue"> Hand 9 </font>
I fold A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif in UTG + 2 after 1 limper.

<font color="blue"> Hand 10 </font>
A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in CO. UTG + 1 limps, UTG + 2 poster checks, MP1 and MP2 limp, I limp, BB checks.

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG + 2 bets out, MP2 calls, I fold. Should I have called this one? I think so...

<font color="blue"> Hand 11 </font>
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in MP. I think I should have open raised but I just open limped, CO-1 and button limp, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, button raises, rest folds, I call.

Turn: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
I check-call

River: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I check, he checks.

<font color="blue"> Hand 12 </font>
What do you think about this one HU? A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in SB. Everybody folds, I raise, BB calls.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, BB calls.

Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, BB folds.

<font color="blue"> Hand 13 </font>
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in MP. UTG + 1 and UTG + 2 limp, I limp, BB checks.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked around, should I have bet? I think so...

Turn: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG + 2 bets out, we all fold.

Well that's all for now. I don't think I played that bad in the multiway pots but I really tilted when it was HU. I know I messed up a couple of times but I have to get back on track so that's why I made this post. Hope you can help me and don't hold back /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

[Brian]

Hi Guido,

I've had a pretty rough time of it myself lately, losing 37 big bets at 10/20, then dropping down to 5/10 and losing 25 big bets, then back to 3/6 and losing 166 big bets! But, the important thing is to keep your head clear, take frequent breaks, and stop immediately if you feel tilt coming on! I fortunately haven't had a problem with tilt in a long time, but like anyone else, I questioned my play a lot during this downswing and I am fairly certain it impacted my poker play in one way or another.

On to the hands:

Hand #1: Fine.

Hand #2: Sometimes I take the free card here on the Flop, sometimes I don't. I definitely fold the Turn, even when it's 1 bet to you. I am bailing the first time MP bets into me on the Turn. I don't take it lightly when someone check-raises the pre-Flop raiser. It is almost always a mistake to call 1 bet, and not call again when it has been raised once. The mistake either lies in your original call (which I think was the mistake here), or your fold for the 2nd bet.

Hand #3: Yeah, you know you messed this one up bet. I call the Flop and check-fold the Turn generally, lacking a read on the player.

Hand #4: I actually fold this pre-Flop a fair amount of times. Depends on the Button. If he's unknown, I guess I'll take a Flop, but I'm not really that happy about it. I'm definitely not 3-betting.

Hand #5: Good.

Hand #6: Yeah, uh... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Hand #7: Fine.

Hand #8: I'm out pre-Flop.

Hand #9: Good.

Hand #10: Good.

Hand #11: Whether to open-limp or open-raise pre-Flop is entirely dependent on the players left to act behind you and the blinds. I can think of many situations where I may limp and I may raise. The looser and worse they are, the more I lean towards limping. The tighter and better they play, the more I lean towards raising. I'm outta here when he raises the Flop. I'd bet the River.

Hand #12: Good.

Hand #13: I bet this Flop virtually every time.

I think the most important thing for you to do is resolve your issue with tilt. If you can't stop tilting, at least make sure you get away from the computer whenever it starts.

-Brian

[BaronVonCP]

Ok I'm gonna take a shot at this. Realize that although I have success at the 2/4 level, I am certainly no authority.

[ QUOTE ]



<font color="blue"> Hand 2 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in CO-1. UTG + 1 raises, MP cold calls, I 3-bet, SB calls, UTG + 1 and MP call.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Checked to me, I bet. Good? Bad? I don't know... SB calls, UTG + 1 calls, MP raises, I and the rest call.

Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

MP bets out, I call, SB raise, UTG + 1 folds, MP calls, I fold. I think this was a bad call but I'm not sure, at that time I thought my 6 outs were good.


[/ QUOTE ]

The bet on the flop is fine considering they checked to you, it may get you a free river. However when checkraised I would fold a majority of the time. With several people in the pot there's a good enough chance that not all 6 of your outs are good. If you did call the checkraise, I would fold to the turn bet.

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Hand 3 </font>
UTG with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, I raise, UTG + 2 cold calls, rest fold.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, UTG + 2 raises, I re-raise /images/graemlins/confused.gif, UTG +2 caps, I call /images/graemlins/confused.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this one is rough. HU play can be tricky and its very player dependant. When he raises your flop bet you need to have some kinda idea what you plan for the hand is. If you think he is trying to make a play at the pot, or semibluffing a flush draw, just call down. However the pot isn't really that large. Folding to a raise would not be the end of the world. You have no pair. No real draw other than backdoor straight action. Let this go, bring ammo next time you want to go to war.
[ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue"> Hand 4 </font>
SB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG + 2 and MP limp, button raises, I call (fold?, 3-bet?), BB and the rest call.


<font color="blue"> Hand 5 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO-1. UTG and UTG + 1 limp, I raise, rest fold, limpers call.


[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you know the raiser is a little insane, muck this one. Your hand doesn't play very well multiway, and it can easily be dominated. If you knew the raiser to be maniacal, and you wanted to play, a 3 bet would a lot better than calling.
[ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue"> Hand 6 </font>
Another tilt hand HU. A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif in SB. Button limps, I raise, BB folds, button calls.
I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.
I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.
I bet, button calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me just say that the money to be made in Low Limit texas hold em is not by getting others to fold. The money is made by having others calling you down when you have a superior hand. When they will pay you off when you have a monster, there really isn't much use in trying to buy pots and bluff. The risk/reward ratio isn't very good. Fold and go to the next hand.
[ QUOTE ]




<font color="blue"> Hand 8 </font>
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. UTG raises, UTG + 1 cold calls, SB calls, I call.



[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't make this call. 33, 89s, even T8s are much better to call a raise out of the big blind with IMO. there isn't a flop that you can feel comfortable playing against an EP raiser with other than something like TT2.


[ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue"> Hand 10 </font>
A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in CO. UTG + 1 limps, UTG + 2 poster checks, MP1 and MP2 limp, I limp, BB checks.

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG + 2 bets out, MP2 calls, I fold. Should I have called this one? I think so...



[/ QUOTE ]

No. You probably should have mucked preflop, but calling on the flop can't really be good. Its easy for someone to have make 2 pair when an A spikes, and the pot is small. Get out.

[ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue"> Hand 12 </font>
What do you think about this one HU? A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in SB. Everybody folds, I raise, BB calls.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, BB calls.

Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, BB folds.



[/ QUOTE ]

I like this one. Ax isn't so bad HU against a blind. And bottom pair is definately strong enough to bet on the flop especially with an A kicker.



[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Hand 13 </font>
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in MP. UTG + 1 and UTG + 2 limp, I limp, BB checks.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked around, should I have bet? I think so...



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet. They have all checked to you and you have a pair with an overcard kicker. Decent chance you have the best hand.

[BugsBunny]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one getting beat up lately /images/graemlins/smile.gif Took a terrible run last week (about 100 BB at 2/4). Started coming back then took another (smaller) hit. Sometimes it just happens. Anyways here's my comments.


Hand 1) OK

Hand 2) Preflop and flop are OK. The turn you should have check/folded. You have nothing except 2 overcards. With a preflop raiser and 2 cold callers (SB called 2.5 cold) in the pot.

Hand 3) Th re-raise was a mistake. It's HU, but it's not. Ring game hands that end up HU are not exactly the same as starting HU. He cold-called your preflop raise, you should have given him credit for spmething to counter your nothing other than a draw. You have the gutshot so call the raise and see the turn. Once the turn came an 8 you could bet out as you did (bluffing the str8), or you could check and see what happens. If you check you should fold to a bet. When the river came a blank check/fold was in order. I would have check/folded the turn. How big is the pot here? Too lazy too figure it out but not big enough I warrant.

4) Preflop. 3 bet or fold. Calling was terrible. Hand would have played out differently if you 3 bet. AQo is one of my current leaks though. Folding is probably best.

5) OK. If the J came you wouldn't know if it was good or not. The other option was to try re-raising to see what happens (if you think he might be bluffing), but a fold is better here. All you really have is 1 overcard + backdoor str8's and flushes.

6) Preflop is fine. Flop is fine. Fold to the raise on the turn - you're beat.

7) OK /images/graemlins/smile.gif

8) I probably fold this one preflop.

9) OK

10) Yes you should have called.

11) Open limping is OK with this hand (IMO). Open-raise would Have been OK as well, but it plays fine multiway. When he raised the flop I fold. With that board, and no clubs in hand, it's just not worth it. If he bluff-raised more power to him.

12) Very good.

13) Checked around to tou on the flop? Bet. Who knows how it would have played.

[Guido]

Hi Brian,

As soon as I felt tilt came up, I stopped. I only played for about an hour and haven't played after that. I just saw that I've only lost about 7 or 8 BB overall at 2/4 so it isn't that bad. I'm back where I started about a week ago. I was fortunate enough to win about 90BB before I lost it all yesterday and today. That means, (I think) I can beat the game at this level.

Hand #2: I agree with you, should have folded the first turn bet.

Hand #4: Most of the time I also fold (in the BB I call) but I can remember that he raised almost always when he was on the button so I presumed he was a little loose.

Hand #8: Why? Because you think you can get into trouble post-flop?

Hand #11: In that case, I think limping was ok. Most of them were loose-passive. The button had AJs BTW /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

Hand #13: I agree.

I was only really tilting when it was HU and those two hand were at the end of that session. I don't think my preflop play was terrible and in a multiway pot my play was fine too but those HU hands, arg. I still find it diffecult HU even when I'm not tilting.

Thanks for your advice,

Guido

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #8: Why? Because you think you can get into trouble post-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bullet-fold ATo to an UTG raise and don't think twice about it. What sort of Flop are you hoping to get? I think this hand will make a 2nd-best hand that you have to pay off all the way too often. I would fold AJo here as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #11: In that case, I think limping was ok. Most of them were loose-passive. The button had AJs BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

That's about the type of hand I'd expect him to have. I was actually putting him on AT.

Good luck,

-Brian

[Guido]

Hi BaronVonCP,

Hand 2: I agree
Hand 3: I agree
Hand 4: Ok
Hand 6: I agree
Hand 8: I agree
Hand 10: Ok
Hand 12: YAY
Hand 13: I agree

So I think I agree with you /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Thanks for your advice,

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I bullet-fold ATo to an UTG raise and don't think twice about it. What sort of Flop are you hoping to get? I think this hand will make a 2nd-best hand that you have to pay off all the way too often. I would fold AJo here as well.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, something to think about and I think it's a good idea. What if the button raised 2 or 3 limpers?

[ QUOTE ]
That's about the type of hand I'd expect him to have. I was actually putting him on AT.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would raise a hand like that if I was him...

[Guido]

Hi BugsBunny,

I agree with you on most things but I would like to know why I should call in hand 10. Because you think I have 6 outs which gave me the right odds to call?

Thanks for your advice,

Guido

[SinCityGuy]

The other posters have made some good points. I would only add that you did the right thing in quitting when you went on tilt. The best thing to do is learn to control your emotions (easier said than done. I'm not quite there yet, myself). Failing that, the best thing to do when you start tilting is to take a long break, get back in the proper frame of mind, then go back on the attack.

Good luck.

[umdpoker]

i think the easiest thing you could do to improve your game quickly is tighten up preflop. you played ato a couple times. drop it! it is a crappy hand, especially in early position. i think in general, you need to learn that you can't buy pots at this level. sometimes you have to fold when the other guy raises and you have ace high. you might be ahead, but is the money you are going to have to put in on the following streets really worth finding out????? always formulate a plan of attack on the flop. say to yourself, "i am doing this for a reason, and if this is the result, i will have to call/fold/raise". stick to your decision. getting in pissing contests with A high on a regular basis will guarantee you will be a losing player.

[BugsBunny]

That was my original thought - and it may still be valid. Plus you also have a backdoor str8 and flush possiblities. But in looking at that one again I don't think folding is a terrible mistake either. I still think I call one SB to see what the turn brings. UTG+2 betting out could be anything. He originally posted up so wasn't in the pot voluntarily. He could have caught a piece of the flop, he could have a made str8. With that flop as it is I'm actually more leery of UTG+2 then I would be if he didn't post. He's more likely to have hit the flop then someone who chose to come in. (Just like a limping BB).

If I caught a pair it could get tricky - especially the T. Flush is weak as well, and someone is possibly already on a flush draw. I guess my final decision to call or fold would depend on if I thought I had good reads on my opponents and could outplay them. But the more I look at it the more I think that folding is probably wiser. Choose easier battles.

If it had been folded around to you after the initial bet I'd be more likely to play.

[Guido]

Hi SinCityGuy,

I don't think I was tilting overall. When it is a multiway pot I don't mind losing that much and I know my turn will come. But in those shorthanded games I felt I deserved to win. After those two hands I was so displeased with myself that I quited.

Thanks for your advice,

Guido

[Guido]

Hi umdpoker,

[ QUOTE ]
You played ato a couple times. drop it! it is a crappy hand, especially in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know and as you saw I dumped it in EP. I called it once in LP and one time in the BB after a raise. The last one was a mistake, I admit.

[ QUOTE ]
I think in general, you need to learn that you can't buy pots at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know, 2/4 hasn't a higher quality than 1/2 or lower. At least that is what I've experienced so far.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to fold when the other guy raises and you have ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I will do that sometimes when I think I'm beat.

[ QUOTE ]
Always formulate a plan of attack on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do, at least when I'm not HU and doing all kind of stupid things /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
getting in pissing contests with A high on a regular basis will guarantee you will be a losing player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know and I will never become one of those ace chasers /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I have to tell, I'm not a losing player and after about 32000 hands I'm up about 2BB/hour/table overall.

Thanks for your advice,

Guido

[Guido]

Hi BugsBunny,

You already gave all the reasons why I folded. I knew the poster as well and I knew that he at least had a good draw or a pair. He wasn't bluffing and that's why I folded.

Thanks,

Guido