Raising before the flop is it worth it?

[symak]

I would like to get others input on a hold'em strategy of almost never raising per-flop in low limit games (.50/1 1/2 2/4 ETC). By this I mean limping in at least 95% of the time.
The thinking being:
1) Most player will see the flop so a raise will never cut down the field.
2) You will just about always get callers if the flop hits you so building the pot early is not as important.
3) You can see more flop without costing yourself much money.

I personally see some value in this if the game is loose passive. Which is easy to find in many online rooms.
Yet I have my doubts about it in other types of games. Like game where there are some tight aggressive players.

Any thoughts?

[MarkD]

No.

Although it may be correct to raise less than in other games you should still be raising a fair amount. Raising hands like A7s in late position after 6 limpers is fine. Same with small pairs. Hands like KQs in late are definitely worth a raise. Even hands like AQo should generally be raised, not for any of the reasons you mentioned above but because it is generally such a better starting hand than what your opponents have that if you don't raise you are costing yourself money.

The best reason I can think of for not raising much is to keep the game playing loose and passive. Sometimes a person raising makes everyone else play differently. I'd still probably raise.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to get others input on a hold'em strategy of almost never raising per-flop in low limit games (.50/1 1/2 2/4 ETC). By this I mean limping in at least 95% of the time.
The thinking being:
1) Most player will see the flop so a raise will never cut down the field.
2) You will just about always get callers if the flop hits you so building the pot early is not as important.
3) You can see more flop without costing yourself much money.

I personally see some value in this if the game is loose passive. Which is easy to find in many online rooms.
Yet I have my doubts about it in other types of games. Like game where there are some tight aggressive players.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes. In response to
1) This is not true. A raise will cut down the field, and if it doesnt well hey you got tons of money in the pot with the (likely) best hand

2) Why isnt building the pot important? The point of the game is to get the most money. You do this by raising with hands that are better than your opponents'

3) If your hand is better than your opponents pre-flop, you are costing yourself money by not raising. If your hand is WORSE than your opponents' preflop, then you are saving money by not raising. Hopefully you are playing better hands than your opponents.

Also raising is more fun. And it causes other players to make more mistakes, and mistakes are how you make money.

[steveyz]

In the loose games section of HPFAP, it specifically mentions that you should probably raise less, especially in early position with unsuited hands because such a raise can build the pot to such a level that it because mathmatically correct for your opponents to draw out on you with bottom pair, or backdoor flush + backdoor straight. You want your opponents to make as many mistakes as possible, and this includes manipulating the pot size to accomplish this goal.

[eh923]

It sounds like you're playing scared. If you're not willing to raise with what should typically be a higher starting hand than your opponents, then maybe this isn't your game.

Good hands don't come along often...and when they do, you need to pound them. It sucks, but it's true. And a lot of times, your big hands don't improve and you need to toss them (AK being the biggest offender). Again, sucks but true. Where you make up for this (and lost blinds along the way) is by building the pot for when your legit hands do hit.

And I hope that you notice the irony in your last sentence (not the "Any thoughts?"). You don't think that this would be a good strategy against some tight-aggressive players. Well, YOU should want to be that type of player...and YOU should hope that your opponents play like that so you can relieve them of their bankroll!

[DiamondDave]

You would be making a big mistake by failing to raise/re-raise preflop with premium pairs and really big suited aces in a loose game.

With these hands, you're betting for value AND to build a big protected pot into which you can bet for value on later rounds (should you still like your hand by that point).

[Gonzoman]

What is really important isn't the number of mistakes they make, but the value of those mistakes. As is mentioned in HEPFAP, if other players are only playing marginally worse hands than you, money you make by them calling PF is lost on later streets and then some because the pot is big. However, if your opponents are playing much worse hands than you are, raising again becomes correct because they won't be able to make up the difference later, according to HEPFAP.

Notice I am talking about mistakes according the FTOP here.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
By this I mean limping in at least 95% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be better off raising 95% of the time. Loose games are about building big pots and pressing your advantages. You should have much better starting hands than your opponents so punish them for there loose play.

Look at the equity you are giving up. Say you have a hand that will win 20% of the time vs. 7 limpers. For 1sb you will win 1.6sb, netting you .6sb preflop. If you raise you win 3.2sb, at a cost of 2sb or 1.2sb preflop. So you are giving up .3BB (1.2sb raising - .6sb limping) by not raising. This in a game where you are hoping to win 1-2BB an hour. If you get this pass up this oppurtunity 5 times in an hour your winrate goes from 2BB an hour to .5BB an hour.

[slavic]

If your opponents are unaware anyway, don't try and overthink the situation.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to get others input on a hold'em strategy of almost never raising per-flop in low limit games (.50/1 1/2 2/4 ETC). By this I mean limping in at least 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be leaving money on the table as many hands earn most of their money preflop.

Stu

[HajiShirazu]

Actually, I have a question, if you never raised preflop, but played very well afterwards, would it be possible to be a winning player?

[BugsBunny]

I suspect that, given the correct game conditions, the answer is yes - but only marginally so.

Now if you never raised pre *or* postflop then I think it's another story and the answer would be "no".

[BaronVonCP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By this I mean limping in at least 95% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be better off raising 95% of the time. Loose games are about building big pots and pressing your advantages. You should have much better starting hands than your opponents so punish them for there loose play.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna have to disagree with this one a little. Even if your hands are better preflop than your opponents, it will not stay that way. And then the pots are getting so large that you turn postflop play into a crapshoot because you will find yourself in situations where you must call based on the size of the pot.

but anyways, in these games you are losing a ton of money by not raising your premium hands preflop.

[Hallett]

Baron, I have played with you on party for a total of 163 hands. Not statistically relevenat, but perhaps interesting. If you want to know what my pokertraker stats say about your raises, PM me, and I will pass them on. Ideally, you will have pokertracker as well, and be able to tell me what my stats look like. My party name is however, not Hallett, it is Nago**.

Cheers,

H.

[OrangeHeat]

Raising is Fun - why wouldn't you raise?

The answer is that if you don't raise you are going to leave an *ssload of money on the table.

Bad idea, bad, bad. The good hands won't hold up as often - but when they do the amount of money you win will make up for the times they don't (provided you RAISE).

Bottom line - Raising is fun - RAISE.

Orange

[Joe Tall]

"You need to look at your cards, as you would handicap a horse race. QQ against 5 opponents, is going to win more than its share. You have to like the idea, that all the money that goes in preflop, is being paid 5-1 odds, because the hand, is probably a 3 or 4 to one underdog, and you are getting an overlay on every dollar that you put in the pot." - Bob T. of 2+2.

View entire thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=453771& Forum=smallholdem&Words=horse%20race&Match=Entire% 20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=45 2197&Search=true#Post453771)

Raise it up,
Joe Tall

[Bob T.]

Thanks JoeTall.

I think that changing my game, so that I was more aggressive preflop, using the horserace concept that you quoted, and making the 'fck, I'm out of position valuebet' mentioned in another thread, changed me from a slightly over 1BB per hour player to a slightly over 2 BB per hour player in online games. Obviously, other improvements have occured, but these were the two biggest.

Some people might argue, that these plays increase your volatility, but in fact, things like this seem to get me more consistant results. I was probably about a +1.2BB with a SD of 13 BBs an hour before, and I think that I am closer to a +2.2BB with a SD of 14BBs now. Lowering the WR/SD ratio, is probably more important than lowering simple volatility. Over the last 6 months, playing about 95% of the days, (I play short sessions, to fit the rest of my life in, I probably only average under 4 table hours per day), I have posted 85% winning days, which is significantly above my long term average.

Good luck,
Play well,

Bob T.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks JoeTall.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's well deserved, Bob. Thank you.

Great results, keep playing well,
Joe Tall

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can play at my game any time you want. Calling stations are always welcome. Bring friends. I'll buy the beer.

[CrackerZack]

Yeah, seems to make sense doesn't it? Guarantee 99% of the people here will screw up its application and lose pots they shouldn't or cost themselves money in pots they won.

Don't manipulate the pots size.

[MRBAA]

Playing well post flop greatly increases the value of raising a hand like JJ or QQ when there are many opponents, IMHO. That's because you're making the pot big, but you are going to often have to lay down on the flop or turn -- yet not get bluffed out anytime an ace, king or strong draw hits the board. This requires good hand-reading skills, and if you don't have them you might do better waiting to see the flop for just one bet.. Now, with aces and kings the odds are stacked even more in your favor, so a raise into five players is better value for a less skilled player, as you are less likely to be faced with tough decisions later.

[CrackerZack]

Welcome to the forum.

[Norm]

[ QUOTE ]
'fck, I'm out of position valuebet'

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone have the link to the above thread?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

it is absolutely INSANE not to raise preflop with your best hands. Sklansky himself said that it's a "crime against humanity not to raise four limpers with AKs." So every time I see one of these "don't raise preflop in loose game" posts, I just have to laugh a little.

YES - RAISE PREFLOP.

AA-QQ - always.

JJ-TT - if you can narrow it down to two or one opponent, otherwise limping might be better if you expect exactly three or four opponents, but with six or more again you should raise for value.

AKs ALWAYS GETS RAISED WHEN I AM HOLDING IT.

There are many other situations where you SHOULD RAISE, but I aint gonna list them all.

Just give up on the idea that not raising preflop is a good idea. The most obvious reason is that you give the BB a FREE chance to beat your premium hand with whatever CRAP he was dealt.

al

[Bob T.]

Sorry, I don't understand how to make the link work, (anyone who cares to give me a quick lesson could PM me /images/graemlins/smirk.gif) but two recent threads where the concept was discussed were:

Brian's 'Top pair with weak kicker out of position: I hate these hands' which he started on 2/9, and is about three pages back now.

Clarkmeister's '4-8 Top pair no kicker' which he posted on 2/7 and was about 17 pages back as of right now.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Norm]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I don't understand how to make the link work

[/ QUOTE ] [u*rl=ht*tp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=453771& Forum=smallholdem&Words=horse%20race&Match=Entire% 20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=45 2197&Search=true#Post453771]View entire thread.[/url]

The above is Joe Tall's link earlier in this thread (except for the 2 early *'s which I added so the system wouldn't recognize this as code). Copy and paste the link address into your post (make sure the link you copy does not have the list of forums on the left hand side), and add the extra stuff at the beginning and end of it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[shutupndeal]

Hi,
This was a good answer for the grasshopper that asked, very well put. I am in the "burbs" of NY also, how far out are ya, im in close to the city, in fact pretty close to Kennedy Airport.

[smilinjimt]

I see raising pre-flop as an important tool; my goal is to drive out the limpers if possible. Premium pairs do better vs. fewer opponents. Each limper that you allow to see the flop lowers your chance of winning the pot. Make them pay for the priviledge. If by chance someone raises you, re-raise. When you are in a position of power, play powerfully. I am not saying play the same way every time; they'll pick up on that eventually, but you do want them to fear your raise. Give your opponents a chance to make a mistake. Letting them all limp in and see the flop is a big mistake on your part. /images/graemlins/cool.gif