Too Aggressive on the river?

[Vern]

Here goes my first post, thank you to all those that have helped this former lurker with your insights.

Loose aggressive table at Party 9 players

Hero is LMP with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG folds, EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 folds, Hero raises, CO calls 2, BTN folds, SB reraises, BB folds, EP1 folds, EP2 calls 2, Hero calls, CO calls. 4 players to the flop for 14SB

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, EP2 raises, Hero reraises, CO calls 3, SB calls 2, EP2 reraises(caps), Hero, CO & SB all call. 4 players to the turn for 15BB

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif [9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

SB checks, EP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, EP2 calls. 4 players to the river for 19BB

River: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif [9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

SB checks, EP2 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB calls, EP2 raises, Hero re-raises, SB folds, EP2 reraises (cap), Hero calls. Two showdown for 23BB

Thanks for any analysis of my play.

Vern

[Vern]

Needless to say, EP2 flipped over presto, 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and took down the pot. What I am most curious about is whether I should be thankful he didn't check-raise me on the turn thereby saving 3 BB's /images/graemlins/crazy.gif. I don't know if I would have slowed down or should that check raise on the river have sent me calling instead of reraising? There were only 4 hands that beat me, 55 (1) or QQ (3) and neither player had played the turn like they had either. It would not have hurt as bad if I had not run into the same thing, my boat to 4 of a kind 5 hands earlier at a different table. Both times I lost 9.5BB. Thanks again for any who comment.

[Schmed]

I don't know that I raise it there with 9's preflop. Depending on the game and players, I give the 2 callers in front a little respect and know that they will call a raise. I may have the best hand preflop but they're seeing the flop.

I haven't looked at the results but I suspect SB for a pair that's why he came alive trying to make the early callers call 2 or get out.

After that I think you played fine and took down a fat pot. EP@ is not limping with QQ, if he has the 55 say nice hand........

[Brian]

Hi Vern,

At a loose-aggressive table, I am probably just limping with this pre-Flop. Your raise is unlikely to buy you the Button, and you will probably be pushed out of the pot if even 1 overcard falls. That being said, I think you played the rest of the hand perfectly. You have the 3rd nuts, and theres no way I am putting EP on QQ. Maybe 55, but them's the breaks.

-Brian

[Vern]

Thanks for the response. I have been trying to formulate a response explaining why I decided to PFR since it seemed so right at the time, but every argument I make I find holes in.

You are correct:

I am unlikely to buy the button.

The PFR is not gonning to push anyone out with low cheese so a ragged flop with all cards below a 9 would still be just as dangerous as if there had been no PFR.

I asked the original question to see if I should have slowed down with the boat on the river, calling the check-raise instead of re-raising. The answer I took away was the only place I could have saved bets was in PreFlop choice. Thanks.

Vern

[Schmed]

I would raise those 9's utg or first to act and I would reraise with them if someone one my right is a loose raiser..

[ordnaryjam]

My game took a nice jump in improvement when i realized i was raising for the wrong reasons sometimes. Understanding why you raise is extremely important in the long term.
So preflop what does a raise do for you? ARe you trying to buy the button? Are you trying to build a pot for when you flop a set? Do you expect those already in to go for a check raise when they flop a strong hand? Are you simply trying to put money in when you believe that you have the best hand?
These are possible reasons for raising this hand. So lets take a loook,
1. Raising to buy the button- will it work in this game? Since you are the one at the table you should be able to answer that with a decent idea of how often both the c/o and btn will fold.
2. building a pot- your not getting immediate odds to raise here to try to flop a set, are you getting implied odds? Are the players at your table the type who will chase way more often with a big pot?
3. setting up a checkraise- i often get checkraised on the flop when i raise in LP preflop. You can use this to get three bets out of someone instead of two by raising preflop. If the field is likely to check to you simply because you raised preflop then it can be a very good move. Now you are in control of what happens since you can ruin their hopes for a c-r, or when you flop a set go for the three bets.
4. putting it in whenyour ahead- Not a bad idea usually, butit depends on you. I tend to have problems playing mid pair even with position, so i wont raise here for this reason because i am not strong enough in this area to feel comfortable in following untill the river, so i will usually just call and go for my set/overpair and if it doesnt work out that way im ready to muck a lot of the time.
I will raise with hands like this in lp to mix up my game from time to time when i am getting a tight image at the table, but i think the important note is to understand why you raise so you can apply it to similar situations, but also not apply it to situations that appear similar but have a key difference.
oj

i might as well live it up as long as i have this catheder in me

[slogger]

Don't forget raising here (not only to buy the button) to fold out any otherwise trashy overcard hands in the blinds.

[Louie Landale]

Although he MAY have a flush and wanted a safe river card before raising, it sure looks like a slow-play. There is also the SB in who presumably HAS a flush and will over-call.

You are risking 2 to win 1 from the EP2 and are giving up an almost sure 1 from the SB when you raise.

This is pretty close to the classic "Go for the Overcall" situation. Find and read the Author's essay on that.

- Louie

[HajiShirazu]

No way you can slow down on the river here. You'll be shown flushes, Q5/95, and other even less believable hands far too often not to cap. Especially on party poker. On party poker, there are players who will play 5x this way.