I have never played a hand as bad as I played this one.

[Bluff1]

20 sng at stars. Blinds are 200/400 a25. 5 players left, everyone is basically even and all of us have about T 5000. Utg limps in, it’s folded to me on the sb I have K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I complete and bb checks.

Flops comes [J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

It’s checked around.

Turn [9h]

I check, bb checks, and utg bets T 1200, I move in all in, BB calls, utg folds. BB has [6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] and takes down the pot. Man the way I played this hand makes my blood boil, thoughts and bashings as always are welcome.

[DrPhysic]

Bluff,
You need an opinion from greg or kurn on this not me, but I have a couple of thoughts on your hand...

If you need to raise with AK to protect the hand, you really need to protect this, if you are going to play it. I think preflop you have to either fold it or raise, I don't like the limp. If you make any raise preflop and he’s slowplaying a big hand, he will tell you so.
On the flop, with the 4 straight, again I would either make a significant raise or prepare to fold. If you raise 2-3BB on the flop, maybe UTG folds.
After the T1200 raise on the turn, I do fold. I can't see the allin with 8 chances of 46 remaining on the river to complete the straight vs 2/1 pot odds.
Basically I think overall you have a choice between don't play this at all, or play it a lot more aggressively.

Doc

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
After the T1200 raise on the turn, I do fold. I can't see the allin with 8 chances of 46 remaining on the river to complete the straight vs 2/1 pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the straight already complete on the turn? I made a similar mistake in a tourney the other day when I had a made straight and there was a 3-flush on the board. Except mine was worse because I was 3rd in chips at the final table of a sat. where the top 4 got a seat.

[DrPhysic]

You're right. I dislike KQo so much, I didn't even catch the fact that he had already made it. Now what do you do???

I still think the real solution here is if you're going to play it, raise preflop to find out how much of a hand UTG has, and

semi bluff with the 4 straight post flop. I think he wins the hand right there (in one case or the other) by being more agressive.

I really don't like KQo. I will lay it down in a second. I have prob lost more $ with them than any other two cards.

Doc

[Prickly Pete]

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest that your play wasn't all that bad.

Seeing a flop cheaply isn't a bad thing. If you raise preflop, it's mainly just to steal. You can't call any reraises imo. Once the flop comes, either checking or going for the semi-bluff is ok.

On the turn, it's just a matter of if you think he's betting the flush here. It's a gamble, but I see this bet so much with the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif or top pair, that often you are ahead. And if you're putting him on something like the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, going allin is good to make him pay for the draw.

[TheGrifter]

Really? I guess he might be betting a high heart with a pair part of the time but is it really worth it to find out? I think I wouldn't mind putting a player to the test on a 3-flush board with a set than a made straight (although not on this board with the flush & possible straight out there) because at least that way I have some outs if I'm wrong. I don't know, I would just think that if all the money goes in on a board with three to a flush that most of the time a straight is drawing dead.

[TheGrifter]

I agree that it doesn't play well in a full table, raised pot. I'm with you and will usually lay it down preflop unless I have good position in relation to the raiser.

[DrPhysic]

Pete,

I agree with your analysis of the post turn completely.

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing a flop cheaply isn't a bad thing. If you raise preflop, it's mainly just to steal. You can't call any reraises imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the steal isn't the reason for a cheap raise preflop (1 or at most 2 bb). My thought was that if UTG has a big hand and can re-raise, I want nothing to do with a call. I was looking for enough information to get away from that KQo as fast as my little legs would carry me before I invest any more $ in the hand.

Obviously on a short table 2,3 players, I would play the KQo for value, but not here if he can re-raise.

Doc

[Bluff1]

One reason I didn't raise was my position would have been crap had I got called. Looking back at it now, this is one of those hands where I got beat and I beat myself up about it. A raise would have drove out the bb and utg would have most likely called and or reraised. I wanted to get to the flop as cheaply as possible. I don't think there was any other way I could have played it on the turn other than all in.

[DrPhysic]

Let's carry this discussion one step farther, because I think the can of worms Bluff, Pete, Grifter, and I have opened is a sort of interesting one:

Preflop, you have three choices, fold, limp, raise.
The reasons you might do them as I can think them up right now are:

Fold
Lousy hand
Better hand with a large previous raise
Chip conservation mode with a less than nuts hand
Chip conservation mode on the bubble (here is the possible fold of AA)

Limp
Drawing hand, need to see cheap flop
Slow playing a big hand
No balls, should be in next category

Raise
Value bet to get more $ in pot
Steal
Information, need to find out how big opponents hand is (are)

Others? I know I can't have them all thought up in 5 minutes.

Doc

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there was any other way I could have played it on the turn other than all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly wouldn't suggest that the way you played this was wrong, and I may have well done the same thing in your shoes, but I think folding on the turn is also a very viable option, isn't it?

I don't think I'm looking at the results to justify the play since you only had 200 invested in the pot and you were facing a pot sized raise with a non-nut hand that had no hope for improvement on the river and another player still to act.

Granted, I think your only two moves were all-in or fold, but in the long run isn't folding in this spot going to provide a better outcome than raising all-in?

[Bluff1]

I like you grifter but why did you have to talk smack about Alabama. lol

[TheGrifter]

All in good fun. I'm from Maine so trust me I'm vulnerable to the jabs as well.

[Bluff1]

I tossed a jab your way grift. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DrPhysic]

Quit bitching. You guys don't have to listen to the Baha Oklahoma crap.

[Bluff1]

Limp
No balls, should be in next category.

I would have raised had I been first one in but it gets a little more risky with an early position limper in the pot.

[DrPhysic]

I don't think you played the turn wrong.

My thought was make a 1bb raise preflop:
He folds, you win.
He calls, you're in trouble as you noted.
He raises, you save a lot of money

If he calls, post flop you make a 2-3bb semi-bluff raise:
He folds, you win.
He calls again, you're in exactly the same sheepdip you are in originally, less 3-4bb bets
He raises, you still save some money.

I think you have already won the hand.
If you get to the turn, what else can you do besides play it as you did, or consider grifters possible fold?

Doc

[TheGrifter]

Five-Handed a raise may have been the way to go here because you may have the best hand. But as you said, you're out of position and any decent ace will probably call you. You also will probably fold to a re-raise from UTG (perhaps he was limping with a monster) so you don't want to pot commit yourself.

Considering everything I'd probably take the no balls route and limp here....then definitely bet the pot on the flop, not sure if the non-nut flush draw would want to play here or if a bet would have been succesful, but generally I'll come out betting with a decent draw shorthanded. Of course, I can't argue with taking the freecard in hopes of hitting the nuts either.

[Bluff1]

It would have been hard to lay it down its just too likely utg is bluffing. Who knew the bb had two hearts which if I had raised preflop wouldn't have even been in the hand to begin with.

[DougBrennan]

Bluff, your original post doesn't mention what your thought process was during this hand, but the post did hit a chord with me, illuminating a weakness in my game.

I am often guilty of getting too concerned with my own cards, particularly if I hit a draw, and give too little consideration to what my draw card may have given my opponent. Your beting action reads the same as mine would under those circumstances, calling the all-in because I hit my straight, momentarily oblivious to the flush possibility that just hit the board.

I agree with the pre-flop limp, might have bet the flop some as a semi-bluff, and if you were thinking about the possibility of a flush when you called, well then it was a wrong decision, but not the worst choice ever made.

But if, like me, you were thinking nothing but "YIPPEE, a straight," that's a leak that needs sealing.

Now if some one could just tell me HOW to fix that leak... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

(My guess is experience. Lose enough in that situation and eventually I will learn.)

[Bluff1]

Doug I figured utg was bluffing and bb probably had crap. So Utg bet I moved in on him thinking I would win the pot right there. I would fold this hand pretty easily in a full game but with 5 players most of the time someone doesn't have the flush.

[DrPhysic]

Was not suggesting your play was no balls.

Your play as i saw it was: drawing hand, need cheap flop.
which is certainly not wrong with KQo.

My suggestion was: informational bet to find out more about opponent's hand before you get pot comitted

Doc

[DougBrennan]

In which case you were wrong, but I don't see anything to beat yourself up over.

Still leaves me with my problem though. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[CrisBrown]

Hi Doug,

Your comment on finding a big leak in your game really hit a chord with me. I've found what seems like a huge one in my game: getting pot-committed with only one pair. When I hit two-pair or better, I win way more than I lose (so says PokerTracker), but one pair is a HUGE net loser for me ... worse even than high card only, which is easy to get away from or check down. So I'm replaying every losing one-pair hand -- PokerTracker allows you to replay the hand step by step -- and see what happened each time.

In some of the hands, I think I played them correctly, and I just didn't win (e.g.: QQ isolated vs. small stack all-in; opponent has KQ and hits the K at the river). But in others, I see a pattern of misplays (e.g.: calling a check-raise with TPTK; in each case the opponent had an overpair, two-pair, or better). So now I'm thinking that calling a check-raise with TPTK is almost always a mistake, often enough that the chips I lose by folding when TPTK is the best hand will be more than offset by the chips I save by folding to a check-raise when it isn't.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you have PokerTracker, you might take a look at the Misc. Stats tab and see which of the final holdings is costing you the most money, click on it, and it will list every time you've played and had that final holding. You can click on each hand played, hit the "r" button, and see how you and your opponent played it, and you may be able to find patterns that will help to improve your game.

Hope this helps,

Cris

(Oops. Meant this to be a private reply.)

[Utah]

Don't sweat it.

I threw away the nut full house in a large pot at an 8-16 game at the Bellagio because I knew the guy caught a flush at the last card.

To show the other players how smart I was I showed my hand to the table. I was really smug until the dealer asked me why I didn't like my full house since it was the nuts. Maybe the most embarrassed I have ever been.

That being said, your play was pretty darn bad /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[blackaces13]

Everytime I read a post entitled "Misplayed on Every Street!!!" or "The Worst Hand I've Ever Played!!!"... I always end up thinking the hand wasn't played very badly at all. Where does that leave me?

PS. If I were to honestly recount the WORST hands I've EVER played they'd be things like re-raising 4 opponents on the turn while holding an AK two pair with a board of A-K-T-J and 3 suited cards (neither my A or K of appropriate suit) , then overcalling 2 bets cold when a blank hit the river. That's more like it.