**Sigh**

[TheRake]

Every so often a hand comes along that confuses me to the point that I really don't know how to continue. I present you with one such hand.

Typical party table. Loose passive with the occasional pre-flop raise.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
TheRake has 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif and is Button

EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, TheRake calls, SB folds, BB calls, EP1 calls, EP2 calls

Flop(14 1/2 SB): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, EP1 checks, EP2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, TheRake checks

Turn(7 1/4 BB): 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, EP1 checks, EP2 bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, TheRake calls, BB folds, EP1 calls

River(11 1/4 BB): 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP1 checks, EP2 bets, MP3 folds, TheRake calls, EP1 folds

Looking at it now I have a better feel for what I could have done differently, but then again I know the outcome. Any and all comments are greatly appreciated.

Results to follow

TheRake

[scotnt73]

id raise the river and hope like hell he just called and wasnt slowplaying the flush.

rake just pointed out out that there is a 4 straight as well that i missed. id just call it down as well.

[taxat]

I would have bet the flop. A bet there may have forced out someone holding top pair and someone holding rags with an 8. I don't think you are up against a made flush, but it is difficult to say without having shown some aggression on the flop/turn.

I'm guessing a straight took it down.

[TheRake]

I thought about raising the river, but now I have a 4 str8 on the board to also think about.

[LaggyLou]

Wow, this is a tough one. I look forward to the other responses.

I'd have played pre-flop the same, because you're not thinning the field substantially with a raise so you might as well have as many folks coming in as possible and hope to spike the set.

The flop is a bit trickier. I see checking along and taking the freebie, but I would probably prefer to bet because when you check you can't be sure where you stand when an EP player bets out on the turn, which is exactly what happened.

On the turn I fold. First, there's a possibility that I'm drawing dead or to two or three outs to tie. Second, even if EP2 only has TP and the rest of 'em are on draws, only three of my outs are clean (8c 8h 8s). I have to think the 8d is no good and even a nine I wouldn't be thrilled about. Even at 10-1 (and I only know it's 9-1 when it gets to me) I don't see making the call, not to mention the (admittedly remote) possibility of a check-raise from the BB or EP1.

On the river you spiked your set, the player in between folded, and you're getting 12-1. Easy call. I would not raise in this spot.

[colehard]

8d gives him a str8 flush - I think that is a clean out.... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[JDErickson]

I think you played this ok.

That being said I think someone who bets the flop, turn and river played it ok also.

Option 2 you risk a whole lot more to win more.

So I'd say either way /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim

[StellarWind]

Bet the flop. In exchange for one bet you get a nice mixture of value, free card potential, protection for your hand, deception, and just maybe the truth about what's going on.

It is likely that any made hand will hit you with an immediate checkraise. Unless someone has the nut flush they would need stupid pills to slowplay this board. Strong draws like the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif may also checkraise. You can fold with a clear conscience.

[Shawsy]

I probably would have played it like you did, I just know how my gut feels when the flop comes three suited and I don't have the flush.

If you take time to think about it, though, betting the flop isn't a bad idea, because it would probably thin the field and may get hands either better than yours (T-something) or those with better draws (probably not the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif but maybe J or Q) to bail. Those with straight draws might also bail. At a minimum, you would buy yourself some information with a small bet. If you are reraised, you can either fold or call. That one-outer 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the str8 flush just has to be chased, right?? C'mon guys, admit it, it's not about the odds at that stage...lol. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Turn and river are fine, imo. Might have been easier to decide if the flop was bet though.

[TheRake]

EP2 shows 33 for the turned set and my river 9 suckout special is good. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks for the comments

TheRake

[TBone]

If you do spike your set, it brings a 4 straight. You can't think that those 4 outs are clean.

T

[Ed Miller]

Well, this situation is uncomfortable, as you figured out.

On the flop, I'd definitely bet. You might have the best hand. If you don't, you have one sure out /images/graemlins/smile.gif and various other possible outs. The pot is big. You have to stick a bet out and hope everything works out for the best.

On the turn, I guess you probably should call as you did. The pot is still big, but not enormous. It would be pretty bad if you raised and got 3-bet. I hate giving ALL those people such a cheap card, though.

On the river, calling is perfect. You certainly aren't folding. Raising is probably wrong because there is only one player behind you, and the only hand he might call with for one bet but fold for two that you don't beat is an eight.

[TheRake]

Ed,

Thanks for the comments. I think betting the flop is the right choice. I was like a deer in the proverbial headlights. I thought I might have the best hand, but I figured if I bet I would get called by half the people in this community pot and I still wouldn't know where I stood. The button bet always looks like you are trying to steal the pot. Honestly I was ready to fold, but when it was checked around it changed the dinamics a bit.

Just one of those difficult hands I guess...worked out for the best.

TheRake

[Ed Miller]

I thought I might have the best hand, but I figured if I bet I would get called by half the people in this community pot and I still wouldn't know where I stood. The button bet always looks like you are trying to steal the pot.

This doesn't matter. The pot is big, and you have a vulnerable hand that has a decent chance to win. Bet. If anyone folds, you make money.

Betting isn't designed to help you "know where you stand." Sometimes it has that side-effect, but too many people seem to think that that's the point of betting.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to think the 8d is no good

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I might diagree /images/graemlins/grin.gif

TheRake

[me454555]

I bet out on the flop. If you get checkraised you're pretty sure you're up against a flush so you can proceed with caution. This would probobly make you and extra bet on the river b/c you would probobly fold most 8's on the flop, so you can raise w/more confidence.