Cold Calling

[Sheriff Fatman]

I've been using Poker Tracker for 2 or 3 months now and have now amassed a sample of just over 12,000 hands (I work full-time so poker is a hobby rather than a profession). I'm making a steady if unspectacular 2.09BB per 100 hands overall so am comfortable that I'm a winning player and have read most of the major books at least once. I'm now trying to build bankroll to move up limits whilst trying to further my understanding of the game.

One area of my game I've been working on is to eliminate as far as possible my pre-flop cold calls. I'm now reviewing this area and would appreciate some thoughts on this.

None of the discussions re Poker Tracker stats I've seen seem to look at this area, but its an area that comes in for much criticism in individual hand reviews.

In 12,119 hands I've made pre-flop cold calls on 40 occasions. Gut feel tells me that this is a low figure compared to the average player but perhaps not when compared to the 2+2 population. These have generally been in situations where I'm in late position and the pot has been raised early. The two most frequent holdings where I do this (7 times each) are AKo (if its suited I'd be raising) and TT (which, for me, is a difficult hand to play). All of the other instances have been with large suited connectors, medium pocket pairs or a suited Ace and were dependent on the actual game at the time. Suited hands were played where a big pot looks to be developing, whilst the pairs were generally situations where the pot was likely to be heads up or 3 handed post flop.

My question now is where do I stand? Does anyone else look at this area? If so, how does my play compare? Is there an optimum level? (OK, I have many questions!)

My instinct tells me my figures are low in terms of frequency of cold calls. In borderline situations I've generally opted to fold or raise rather than call, and have had my usual share of right/wrong decisions. However, some players seem to have a total aversion to cold calling so, compared to some, I will propably appear to be a loose player.

Another stat I've looked at is evaluating the outcome of these plays using the filters in PT. So far my cold calls have resulted in a small profit so I'm reasonably pleased with my judgement so far. However, I've had a nagging feeling in some situations that I may be giving up too much.

Your thoughts would be appreciated. I've posted here rather than in the other forums as this is more of a general concept rather than a specific hand play or a discussion related solely to Internet play. Apologies if anyone thinks it belongs elsewhere.

Thanks

Sheriff

[Mike]

What you are asking is really more in line with game theory, optimum betting patterns, and deception. Cold calling has its place as does weak tight play, it just shouldn't hold a major place in your game.

Generally there are some very good hands that are cold calls that do not merit raising or folding. For example in some games you hold KQo in late middle position and three limp ahead of you. You generally shouldn't be raising and folding may also be the wrong thing to do.

Rarely cold calling is good against people who play against you more than once. They tend to remember how you play and it makes them play tighter which helps you judge the quality of your hand. On the down side, they can also tend to ignore your raises.

There are a worse ways to play than rarely cold calling, but there are some better ways than almost never cold calling too. Perhaps someone else wil have some firm ideas that may help you. gl

[Nate tha' Great]

I'm at about the same ratio as you, 34 cold calls in roughly 9000 tracked hands. Almost all of my cold calls are in the following situation:

1. I'm on the Button, or sometimes the CO.
2. The preflop raiser has loose raising standards.
3. I have a hand such as a suited connector that plays better multiway than heads up.

Like you, I've found these plays to be surprisingly profitable, though of course it's important to keep in mind all the usual caveats about sample size. Thirty-four instances is not many at all.

Certainly, you don't want to make a habit of it, but I think the dangers of the occasional cold call are greatly exaggerated. I'll be damned if it isn't worth two bets before the flop if I can get 4- or 5-way action with JTs and I've got the Button.

[LetsRock]

I don't have any stats on this, but I do have some general rules that I apply to cold calling. OF course there's many things to consider but in general, I'll cold-call with:

Suited Aces (from any position)
QQ-99 (from any position)
88-66 (from MP on)
Low PP (from late position or blinds)
AKo, AKs, (from any position)
KQs (from any position)
AQs, QJs, JTs (from med to late position)
AQo, AJ, AT (from late position or blinds)
med suited con (from blinds)
KJs and the like (from the blinds, occasionally from CO or button)

As I said, this isn't absolute, but it's my general guidelines. I like to stay under the radar with some of the hands that many here would 3-bet with. If I suspect more raises most of these become instant mucks unless there are lots of active players then I'm getting good odds (same odds I'd have gotten if all the same players just limped in) to see if the flop can build me a monster.

It also greatly depends on who's doing the raising and from where.

I'm not suggesting this is perfect - it's just my current game plan.

[Nottom]

That looks like way too many hands to be coldcalling with to me, and you really do need to 3-bet with AK, JJ, QQ.


Basically the only hands I have cold-called with in the past 17k hands or so are some small-medium pairs with a bunch of players already in the pot and AJs, AQs, or KQs after a weak raiser and a caller or 2 (and I didn't feel good about doing it).

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
That looks like way too many hands to be coldcalling with to me, and you really do need to 3-bet with AK, JJ, QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. These three hands aboslutely need to be 3-bet, *especially* AKo.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically the only hands I have cold-called with in the past 17k hands or so are some small-medium pairs with a bunch of players already in the pot and AJs, AQs, or KQs after a weak raiser and a caller or 2 (and I didn't feel good about doing it).

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't feel guilty about it. I'll routinely cold call with KJs or 98s, for example, in a multiway pot. Even if your hand is dominated, you generally have even or better preflop equity against a field of other plausible hands:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=204593

If you also have good position and superior postflop skills, then I think you're giving up value by mucking these sorts of hands.

[Mike]

My standards are mostly the same. Playing B & M with a limited number of HE players may be why. If I raised or reraised many of the hands discussed as raising hands, I wouldn't get any action except from the rocks post flop unless someone held the nut.

Over aggression doesn't work well, when most of your competition is loose preflop and tough postflop - for me anyway. Of course reading online hands, this doesn't seem to be an issue.

[TwoNiner]

Cold calling with suited ace is the worse offender imo. I will cold call with alot of pairs if it looks like a large field

[Nottom]

I hate cold-calling, I absolutely hate myself whenever I do it. As such I have 53 coldcalls out of about 32K hands.

My biggest culprit is KQs followed by 88 and 99, most of the other pairs show up as do AQs and AJs and few other hands that I would have been most certainly better off folding. I'm a slight loser with coldcalls (down 0.15BB/hand), but the hands I know I shouldn't have played are the ones leading the loser list.

I might not be coldcalling enough, but my winrate isn't hurting all that much as a result. I am still of the opinion that for 90% of players if they never coldcalled they would be better off than they are now.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Suited Aces (from any position)
QQ-99 (from any position)
88-66 (from MP on)
Low PP (from late position or blinds)
AKo, AKs, (from any position)
KQs (from any position)
AQs, QJs, JTs (from med to late position)
AQo, AJ, AT (from late position or blinds)
med suited con (from blinds)
KJs and the like (from the blinds, occasionally from CO or button)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an example of a bad cold-calling strategy. If you just 3-bet or folded with 90% of that list I think your game would be much better off.

**guess I need to stop replying before finishing the thread, I had already responded to this post ... bah.

[balkii]

I am with Nottom on this one. I have coldcalled 58 times in 52,000 hands. 88 is my most common. BB/hand is -.10

Coldcalling is just no fun.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any stats on this, but I do have some general rules that I apply to cold calling. OF course there's many things to consider but in general, I'll cold-call with:

Suited Aces (from any position)
QQ-99 (from any position)
88-66 (from MP on)
Low PP (from late position or blinds)
AKo, AKs, (from any position)
KQs (from any position)
AQs, QJs, JTs (from med to late position)
AQo, AJ, AT (from late position or blinds)
med suited con (from blinds)
KJs and the like (from the blinds, occasionally from CO or button)



[/ QUOTE ]


If you're generally cold-calling with AT and AJ in LP, then you really need to work on your game. You haven't even passed the Ace-Jack test.

[GuidoSarducci]

[ QUOTE ]
In 12,119 hands I've made pre-flop cold calls on 40 occasions.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My instinct tells me my figures are low in terms of frequency of cold calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yeah... .003% of the time you call. I'd say that's pretty much never.

[MaxPower]

I guess I'm real loose because I've cold called 186 times in 49,715 hands. I'm winning .39BB per hand when I cold call.

The vast majority of this profit comes from pocket pairs (JJ-66) in multiway pots, which makes sense.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any stats on this, but I do have some general rules that I apply to cold calling. OF course there's many things to consider but in general, I'll cold-call with:

Suited Aces (from any position)
QQ-99 (from any position)
88-66 (from MP on)
Low PP (from late position or blinds)
AKo, AKs, (from any position)
KQs (from any position)
AQs, QJs, JTs (from med to late position)
AQo, AJ, AT (from late position or blinds)
med suited con (from blinds)
KJs and the like (from the blinds, occasionally from CO or button)



[/ QUOTE ]


If you're generally cold-calling with AT and AJ in LP, then you really need to work on your game. You haven't even passed the Ace-Jack test.





[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I'm marking this thread as one of my favorites - Elizabeth Anne actually posted poker advice...and it's correct!!!

[NotBannedYet]

[ QUOTE ]
in general, I'll cold-call with:

Suited Aces (from any position)
QQ-99 (from any position)
88-66 (from MP on)
Low PP (from late position or blinds)
AKo, AKs, (from any position)
KQs (from any position)
AQs, QJs, JTs (from med to late position)
AQo, AJ, AT (from late position or blinds)
med suited con (from blinds)
KJs and the like (from the blinds, occasionally from CO or button)


[/ QUOTE ]

Are all your 1,100+ posts filled with this much insight and astounding poker advice?

It's no wonder you believed in pattern maps.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Wow, this thread has had a much better response since its unexpected bump.

Since posting my note I've actually experimented with loosening up slightly regarding the marginal decisions (mainly medium pocket pairs) but this subject certainly seems to me to be a 'grey area' as far as strategy is concerned. I'm not yet sure about whether or not my 'ultra tight' approach is actually giving up too much (although I certainly can't fault those who use it) which is why I'm monitoring the overall effectiveness of these decisions and experimenting a little. I'm sure there's an optimum level somewhere but I'm not sure if I've found it yet!

I think 'ultra-tight' is a good way for a player to start out when faced with a cold-call. However, once a player has reached a certain level of proficiency then, provided the decisions are used in appropriate circumstances, I think there is potentially some merit in a looser style of play, as MaxPower's figures seem to indicate. I think this is the stage where I've reached in my development.

The information I'm using is not one of the obvious numbers within PokerTracker, but the ability to monitor such decision-making is one of the reasons why I find it so valuable. However, as my original post indicated, there is little information out there against which to compare myself. However there are a lot of PT users on this forum with the potential to provide feedback.

Many thanks to those who've responded so far and for the unexpected bump which has kick started the hoped-for debate.

Sheriff

[MaxPower]

I don't think I am any looser with cold calling than you are. We are both cold calling with .3% of our hands.

[Sheriff Fatman]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think I am any looser with cold calling than you are. We are both cold calling with .3% of our hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Was working from the hands you quoted rather than the percentages. 66 is an example of the hands I'd been routinely folding. JJ I'd generally been re-raising with.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
However, some players seem to have a total aversion to cold calling so, compared to some, I will propably appear to be a loose player.


[/ QUOTE ]

being loose is not the worst thing about cold-calling too much. cold-calling is also weak. unless you are doing it for certain deception purpose.

my $0.02

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 12,119 hands I've made pre-flop cold calls on 40 occasions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My instinct tells me my figures are low in terms of frequency of cold calls.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Umm, yeah... .003% of the time you call. I'd say that's pretty much never.

[/ QUOTE ]

has anyone responded to this yet? this is wrong. the figure would be 0.3%, not 0.003%

[MaxPower]

Pretty much every hand that I have cold-called with I have also 3-bet or folded depending on the situation. The key is to understand when to do each.

As long as it is not extremely high, the percentage is not really important. It doesn't tell us whether you are cold-calling with the right kinds of hands. If we both cold-call .3% of the time, but mine are with pocket pairs and yours are with unsuited high cards, there is big difference between the two.

[Styles]

I've won 37% of the time I've ColdCalled for 1.11BB/100

I still have alot of losers in here.

My worst hand is QTs that I have CC'd twice out of the CutOff. I guess that's too loose.

TT, 99, and 88 aren't doing to well either which is not too surprising, but, KK and QQ are losing for me also.

So where's the success coming from: AA, AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, A9s, and KQs are my only CC-overall-winners.

[southerndog]

I was playing at the borgata this week and had this hand, the details are a little foggy:

A few limpers to loose passive in early MP who raises.
Cold caller after him, and I have a pair of sixes. Since there was already a few callers and I knew I would have a coupla more, I called. My thinking was this: I knew it would get checked to him on the flop, and if the flop looked at all scary, he would check. The flop came 9 9 4, suits no matter. It got checked around. Turn comes a 6, BINGO!! Well, I took down a huge pot. I guess I was lucky, but, I think it was worth it given the huge pot.

I cold called given the number of callers, and the fact that I could outplay them on the flop and beyond.

Any thoughts?

Dog

[GuidoSarducci]

Ooops.

Probably why I was an English major.

[Skeeter281]

I'm new but I didn't see you mention anything about WHO (solid, rock, maniac) is raising and what type of hands they would raise in early position with. That can be another thing to look at.

[joker122]

Where can I find my CC % in poker tracker?

[Nottom]

I don't know if there is an number generated, but your total CCs will apear on you gen info screen under CCPF and then you can just divide that by your total hands to get a %.

[WillMagic]

You can't be serious.

One of the best pieces of advice that I ever received in regard to LLHE, and the one piece of advice that I think is more important than almost any other...
"You shouldn't even REMEMBER the last time you called two bets cold."

It's generally, well, horrible. If your hand isn't good enough to three-bet and isolate, then you should fold it.

You should never be the first player to call two bets cold. Period.

If a number of players have called two cold in front of you, things become more lax...big suited cards, maybe, and maybe middle pairs....but in general it's a good idea just to steer clear of the whole hornet's nest.

I think we've found a major hole in your game...you need to really reduce the amount that you cold-call...

Will

[MicroBob]

yeah.....i'm looser than most.
some of these observations are just off the top of my head....i am extremely aware that i don't know nearly as much about this goofy game as most of you and i have really enjoyed this thread and am glad it got me thinking about this topic.
i am a winning player however (no matter how dumb i am i always seem to find players dumber than me).


15k hds, 151 CC's (with 8-10 players at table).
i am a winner with my cold-calls...but there are a lot of hands i need to be 3-betting with and i have been doing more of that lately (thanks partly to the original posting of this thread).
66, 88, TT are big winners for me. 55, 77, 99 are losers.
maybe i should just cold-call with even number pairs!!

4 or 5 players come along for 2 bets....i'm on the button with A7s (or even K7s). your thoughts??
what about JTs or even T9s?

i'll play any pair if there are enough pre-flop players....but if i hit my set of 2's i know i have to be careful of a higher set already being out there or possibly coming on the turn or river.

some of these ideas are becoming more and more moot imo as i am seeing fewer and fewer situations where multiple players will come along for 2 bets. those utg raises are more frequently bringing a fold-fest or a re-raise. i guess some of you would think they're probably doing me a favor if they are saving me a cold-call.

a couple months ago i posted a hand in the SS forum where i had 54s on the button and cold-called after 6 of the first 7 players were in for 2 bets.
i took down a huge pot....i think i hit my straight on the river, but it might have been a flush.
a couple of posters had an issue with cold-calling 2-bets with 54s....but most seemed to think i played it well (that's a first).

[WillMagic]

Here's the thing - the rules for cold-calling do change when a lot of people have cold-called in front of you.

So, if someone raised and 4 people cold-called in front of me, I would call on the button with JTs and T9s.

However, coldcalling A7s is really, really bad. Think about it. You are relying exclusively on your flush draw. I can almost guarantee you that you are dominated by a better ace. Suited ace-rag should NEVER, EVER be played for more than one bet.

I don't doubt that you are a winning player - you do post on this forum, after all. But you would win a lot more if you limited your coldcalls to extreme situations, or just stopped completely. I guess my main point is that you should follow the rule first - don't coldcall - and then after a while you can start looking for exceptions.

Will

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
However, coldcalling A7s is really, really bad. Think about it. You are relying exclusively on your flush draw. I can almost guarantee you that you are dominated by a better ace. Suited ace-rag should NEVER, EVER be played for more than one bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

As much as I hate coldcalling there are a lot of players here that will disagree with this statement.

Thread about calling with A5s (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=332388 &Forum=mediumholdem&Words=How%20many%20coldcallers &Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1 year&Main=332388&Search=true#Post332388)

[MicroBob]

that's a good link nottom. thanks.

i have indeed been limiting my cold-calls because i have had some others that i found that were crap.....i have found myself ditching or 3-betting cold-call situations more and more lately thanks to the original posting of this thread.


but i do think that calling A5s on the button if almost everyone is in for 3-bets is a no-brainer....calling 2-bets with it with fewer players than 'everyone' is subject to table-texture and maybe even your own personal taste.

i had a couple of situations yesterday where i know i would have stayed in 3 weeks ago with Axs...but i looked at position and ditched it instead....that is thanks to you guys....so i'm getting more selective and bceoming a more solid player thanks to you guys.