checking tp/tk, yet again

[DanZ]

Online 20-40 10 handed. There is a late blind and 4 limpers to me. I raise AdQd on the button. Blinds plays, all call.

One of the later limpers seems borderline insane, raising several players with awful off suit aces on other hands and playing way too loose.

Flop is AsKc8h. Checked to me and I check. Turn is 6c. Checked to crazy player who bets, the late blind raises, and I 3 bet. Crazy folds, late blind calls.

River is a 9. Check , check.

Comments appreciated.

Dan Z.

[astroglide]

fancy play syndrome.

[Depraved]

You forgot to value bet the river. Better hands won't checkraise you since you've represented a monster effectively. If you feel you're beat anyway before the 9 you should have folded on the turn.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
If you feel you're beat anyway before the 9 you should have folded on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is far from correct. If he felt that he was beat lets say 65% of the time on the turn he was correct in playing the hand. And the correct play was to reraise in that spot.

On the river he may still be winning only 35%, and a value bet achieves nothing.

[ZeeJustin]

I don't understand why you would check the flop. You have a good hand, but a hand that can easily be outdrawn. The board is likely to have made a second best hand already for at least one other player, most likely 2.

[vkotlyar]

I like it...all of it. This is the only way to get 10J and JQ to fold. If you bet the flop, they will call the flop and will not be terribly wrong in calling the turn as well. This way, you only give them one shot to beat you and its unlikely that the turn will give someone a better hand that would of folded on the flop. The only hand that can hurt you is a set that would have folded on the flop, and taht is prety rare. Great play
vitaly

[SoBeDude]

Hi Dan,

Can you explain your thinking process in this hand?

-Scott

[cepstrum]

agreed. instead of making this fancy play, he should have moved all-in on the flop.

good luck

cepstrum

[astroglide]

we should modify our play to account for people making bad calls with 4-outers?

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
fancy play syndrome.

[/ QUOTE ]

FPS aka "over-tricky with one pair in a multiway pot so that i can get all kinds of action on the turn without any reads since i didn't get any information on the flop and i will sadly pay off any 5 outter that got lucky on the turn all the way through river for the same reason i just said" SYMDROME.

the way Rigoletto (pardon me for borrowing your name) would play:

bet the flop and get check raised by the insane limper. poster 3 bet and hero 4 bet! everyone folds to poster. heads up.

Turn check bet call
River check bet call

result: winning 50BB more on this hand while increasing winning chances to 99% from 8% on the flop... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kenny

[DanZ]

well, pre-flop is a no-brainer.

on the flop, my hand is good, but vulnerable. there are 2 broadway cards out, and an 8 is a fairly likely card for a limper or the BB. So, there are probably a few opponents with 1 pair hands or gutshots. Also, with an ace on board, I could only expect a raise to come from another ace, which would be great if it happened from the blinds. If it didn't, I expected to get several calls from players with some outs to catch me, and most of these players would come for one turn bet as well.

I am not sure thge pot was large enough for this play to be correct as a general rule, but there were some other factors that swayed me.

1) given my position, I do not necessarily have much despite the AK on board. I would usually be raising hands like JJ, TT, QJs or TJs here to get out the blinds and take advantage of those who are likely limping loosely with the late blind.

2) I had my friend who, if checked to, would not pass up a shot at this pot on the turn. So even if everyone else had little, or was suspicious of my check, I knew there would be someone who wasn't who was in good position to help me out

3) If one of the blinds did have an ace, they may have bet it on the flop (or 3 bet before the flop with a good kicker, given the late blind). This flop bet would pressure those in between us, and prevent my taking a free card with QQ,JJ,JTs, etc.

4) I have similar feelings about the first limper - he would probably raise an ace first in.

So, correct or not, I checked the flop. The turn 3 bet is a no brainer. If the late blind had a hand, they would have probaly bet the flop and not counted on me to do it. Also, This player would be very tempted to raise the "crazy" player with a weak hand, suspecting him of having a pure bluff or a club draw. Given the pot size, letting people come along for 2 bets, or letting the turn bettor continue for 1 bet is not an option. THe 3 bet may also confuse the turn raiser and get this player to fold a few outs.


On the river, I did not think the turn raiser would call a bet with a weak hand. Since I did not think this player had an ace, I did not bet. Looking back on the hand, I probably could have bet the river, and this player may have called suspicious that I turned a flush draw. However, I still cannot say that that my hand is best half the time the bet is called. I did not know the player well enough, but I am thinking there was a bet there against many opponents.

Dan Z.