AA vs. a preflop capper

[bdk3clash]

No real read on CO in this hand, as I had just sat down.

Comments on each street?

Party Poker 2/4 (8 handed)
bdk3clash has A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is BB

CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, bdk3clash 3-bets, CO caps, bdk3clash calls

Flop(8 1/2 SB): 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bdk3clash bets, CO raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, CO caps, bdk3clash calls

Turn(8 1/4 BB): 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bdk3clash bets, CO raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, CO calls

River(14 1/4 BB): 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

bdk3clash bets, CO calls

[sfer]

Looks good. There's no point slowing down to a preflop capper with Aces and that board. Did he show kings?

[DonWaade]

With betting capped pre-fop, there is no way CO is on a straight draw. IMO you played perfectly. I guess that he had KK.

[bdk3clash]

Though I'm pretty happy with my play, CO had 77 for 7s full.

[dirty_dan]

Was nice of him to slow down at the end and save you a couple bets.

[Alobar]

wow, he played that crappy then....did you thank him? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bdk3clash]

If you put yourself in his shoes, his play makes perfect sense. If you're the type of person that caps with 77, wouldn't you suspect other people of 3-betting with 99, 88, 97, or 95? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dirty_dan]

Not only doesn't he consider what you might have, but he's not even thinking about what he has. I guarantee when that turn came he thought "crap, now someone with a 9 beats my three sevens".

[tripdad]

good point!

i assume you took him for lots of scratch throughout the course of the session. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheers!

[MRBAA]

Okay, I"m going to say you didn't play this so great. Here's where the next level of play comes in, hand-reading. There are LOTS of party 2-4 players who will cap with 77, 88, 99, 10Js and all kinds of other stuff. I think Hellmuth overvalues pairs in his book, which some of these folks have read, but also if you're head up, they may be hoping you have AK. Or they may just be gambling, long-term losing players. But your edge doesn't just come from playing better cards preflop. To really win, you've got to play well after the flop, too. On that flop, once he raises you have to wonder what he has. Sure it could be KK or QQ. But there's plenty of hands you can put him on that are bad news (like what he had). Now you can either three bet the flop or just call and bet the turn. Either way, if he caps the flop (as happened) or raises your turn bet, it's reasonable to think you may be beat. You certainly don't have enough edge to keep pumping in the bets. I'd likely have played the preflop and flop as you did, but then check/called the turn and river. You don't want to be one of the "good players" who act as if hand values are static and because "I have aces" they should still be winning after the flop, even when their opponent is telling them pretty clearly that they aren't and there are many plausible hands that could have top pair crushed. Anyway, I'm sure you know most of this. You're not going to fold with this board, but you can save some bets, I think.

[bdk3clash]

You make some good points, and I guess this hand is a balance between throwing extra bets in when you're behind and missing bets when you're ahead, which could have just as easily been the case if this player had moderately reasonable capping standards.

Still, though, in a sense he was telling me "an overpair might not be good" on the flop, and I didn't listen. When he raised the turn, I agree that I should have just called down for sure. I was more thinking about hands he would have capped preflop with, as opposed to what he would have capped the flop with, which I guess is what threw me off.

Good input, thanks.

[spamuell]

MRBAA,

I HATE the patronising tone of your post. bdk3clash was not just raising at every juncture because "I have aces". Did you even read his post?

He (reasonably) put his opponent on a large pocket pair. His opponent played as if he had a large pocket pair, not a full house (he slowed down on the turn).

I don't think any bets should be saved here. You're going to be paid off by an overpair easily as much as you're going to see a set. There are so so many opponents who would play TT-KK this way, thinking pre-flop "me big favourite over obvious high cards" and after the flop "me have overpair. me likey.".

I don't know whether you're being results orientated or are just generally weak-tight, but I really dislike both the tone and content of your post.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I'd have played it as you did, figuring on being shown KK or even QQ. It was nice of him to save you a few bets on the end. There are 2/4 players who will cap with 77 (or even ATo), but these are not all that common. I hope this guy stayed at your table long enough you to bleed him.

Watched a maniac burn through $200 playing 2/4 in a short period of time, then reload for another $300. He lost $100 of that in a few minutes, then left. I took two pots off him, and the table let out a collective cry of grief when he left us with $200 still in front of him.

[bdk3clash]

For what it's worth, I didn't feel as if MRBAA's response was patronizing in the least. One of his his points (as I understood it) was that I might not have reacted appropriately to my opponent's flop aggression, which was a good point to make.

Anyway, I think one thing to keep in mind is that a hand like this can be played in different ways--there really is no one right answer. Calling down after the flop cap or the turn raise is reasonable, re-raising the turn made sense (at the time /images/graemlins/wink.gif ), etc.

I doubt any of us give up a ton of equity in the long-run, no matter how we play this hand.

[spamuell]

For what it's worth, I didn't feel as if MRBAA's response was patronizing in the least.

Yeah, I don't know why I took it so personally. I think it's because I would have played the hand the exact same way and thought the exact same things. But still, I don't get annoyed when people criticise my play. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Also, I had a pretty bad day.

MRBAA, no offence meant, I know there was value in your advice.

[LetsRock]

FWIW, I think about slowing down after his flop cap. That board is very coordinated and you can NOT count on people to play the "correct" way; in other words I start worrying that maybe he doesn't have KK.

On a less coordinated board, it's fine to keep pushing; you really can't put him on 77 (or similar), but with a straight board you have to consider that he went crazy with a JTs or other nonsense.

I always prefer to miss a few bets here if I'm wrong then to bully my way into a big disapointment by assuming he's playing by the same rules as me.

Luckily he saved you 5BB by being really clueless. Helmuth rules! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

(Just to be clear, the "Helmuth rules!" comment was in jest.)

[bdk3clash]

I can feel the Small Stakes love.

Anyway, I should have folded them preflop anyway. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Mike]

Ditto on MRBAA's post.

I think a major flaw in many people's games is: No one plays as well as I do. They only raise because they are fish and are gambling.

A few rounds later you might know this player only raises 77 or you might find out he is much better or worse player than youself. I would think most online players generally read the same poker books and have access to the same forums we all do.

You can do far worse than giving other players at the table credit for playing at least as well as you do until you know otherwise. It's a more pleasant and easier to start out slow and win a pot than start out with a bang and spend the session trying to catch up. Good outlook on the river, that's a big win all by itself!

[MRBAA]

Hey, bdk as you know from playing with me (I hope) no condescenion intended. My point is not to be weak tight, but just that loads of people in the empire/party 2-4 games will cap with holdings other than what you or I would. You don't want to be a "self-weighting" player by always playing the same way. And I think once he caps the flop, you aren't giving up much against anyone but a total maniac.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, bdk as you know from playing with me (I hope) no condescenion intended. My point is not to be weak tight, but just that loads of people in the empire/party 2-4 games will cap with holdings other than what you or I would. You don't want to be a "self-weighting" player by always playing the same way. And I think once he caps the flop, you aren't giving up much against anyone but a total maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point(s) well taken, and I noted no condescension in your original post.

I can see reasons to continue being aggressive and reasons to slow down, and overall I'm not too disappointed in how I played. I may have thrown in an extra bet by re-raising the turn, but honestly, it should have cost me a lot more. The more I think about this hand, the more I lean toward calling down his turn raise and check-calling the river.

I still think betting out the turn is OK, though I can see check-calling there too.

[MRBAA]

For an interesting discussion of AA against an aggressive player, in a different type of situation, see Poker Essays III by Malmuth, page 181 "Some Logic Principles".