my first shot at 10-20, 2 hands

[Schmed]

I prelude this with, this is the first time I played 10-20 I usually play 6-12 but the Casino was packed and it was the first table I was called for so I felt a little Short Stacked because I only had 300 of my bankroll.

I had played pretty tight for about an orbit. 5 callers to me and I get 10,10 in the BB. I checked.

Flop

7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, mp player calls, lp calls

Turn

J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, mp folds, lp calls

river 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, lp calls

I show and win. LP had 88

Really the only thing that bothered me here was not raising preflop. I felt a little SS and the table was playing ultra loose. I felt my raise would have served no purpose but to make a bigger pot and if an overcard hit, especially and A or a K, I was dead.

Might as well put my big screw up here too.

A couple of players were walking and we had just lost two so we were 6 handed. EP calls, mp calls, I'm in the cutoff and see K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Normally a hand that I wouldn't even consider but I make the excuse that it was short handed in my mind and call. Button folds, sb calls, bb checks.

Flop

4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me I bet, blinds fold, ep and mp call.

turn

8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to me, I bet, ep calls, mp raises, I call, ep folds.

river q /images/graemlins/club.gif

mp bets, I fold, ( I heard the MP tell his wife, who was sitting behind him, that he had a str8....actually it was kind of funny because he said it real quiet at first and then she kept saying, "HUH?? WHAT??? YOU HAD AN 8???" he finally said loud enough for everyone to hear "STR8 I HAD A STR8" )

thoughts.

My real thought was G$%^@%^amit I should have taken my free card on the turn. This hand was the difference between me making money that night and breaking even. There were so many things that went through my mind about this hand. First of all I shouldn't have even played it. Secondly checking the turn may have been the way to go although like I said I was playing pretty tight most of the night, (this being my one stab at being loose), I was trying to win the pot, and I had outs. How many would have raised in a lp if they decided to play this hand?? I figured they were calling with pairs. EP probably had a pocket and the MP I was thinking maybe something like AJ, A10, I really should have added 56s or the 10j in my thinking. My head kept telling me, take the free one take the free one, but my heart said, F%^k it win this pot and push these saps out of my pot. Well when no spade hit I was feeling rather sappy.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Overall I found the 10-20 to be the exact same as my 6-12 game, 4 or 5 people seeing flops and most would call cold raises with any cards they would want to play. It was probably that it was Harrahs in NO but I just didn't see this big jump in skill level. How big is the jump elsewhere from 6-12 to 10-20?? I like the red chip game better to be honest.

(I edited this second hand to reflect that I DID NOT FLOP A FLUSH /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[Kenshin]

I too would refrain from raising into 5 callers from the big blind with 10-10. Against this number of limpers, your hand derives value primarially from flopping a set. Thus, I do not want to put additional money into a pot when I am out of position and drawing to a 7.5-1 shot

[calig]

Hand 1 I would not have raised into 5 players with the 10's.

Hand 2 - Toss up if I would play this hand but if I do I would raise preflop shorthanded. I would also have taken a free card on the turn given the coordinated board.

[onegymrat]

Hi Schmed,

This weekend, I took my first shot at 10/20 myself. I normally play 6/12 & 8/16 in L.A., but was in Sin City over the weekend. I found the 10/20 players at the Mirage to be the toughest game I've been ever at. In most situations, it was rather textbook like. Average flop was two or three seeing the flop, tight and aggressive. I was up ONE big bet in a four hour session and called it victory. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Although when I sat at the 8/16 at the Bellagio later that night, it was much looser with an average of 4-5 players each flop. Quite different for $2 difference. It was more like the games I'm used to in L.A., although the average player in Vega$ seemed more skilled than the loonies in L.A.

By the way, hand 1 you played fine. Hand 2 I like the turn bet. I would have taken the free card without the added gutshot draw. Nothing much you can do after that. Good luck.

[elysium]

hi schmed
hand 1) can stand a raise but with that many in the field, you're not costing yourself anything by checking the pre-flop. you will need to hit the flop. not raising hurts you those times you hit the flop, but helps you when the flop misses you the way it did. i would think that you will flop a set only slightly more frequently than you will miss flopping a set but still flop favorably given the number of opponents. i think there is a little ev though in raising pre-flop. here though, you are better off not having raised. nothing to do but pat yourself on the back here.

the next hand is horrible. it's not so much that the ev is so terrible. the ev isn't bad on the pre-flop. the thing is these are the type of plays that cause skilled players to target you in later hands. even if collusion doesn't exist, you create it whether you show it down or not. the skilled players know what you did, and will apply betting pressure that will haunt you for the rest of the session. if you want to know what it is that sharks look for, this is it.

you must take the EP limpers more seriously than K6s. if you don't, you'll get targeted in LP and in the blinds all night long. often, you will fold against betting pressure being applied by weaker hands when you don't take these EP limpers seriously. are you also entering in with KQo out of position? yes. and will you later make a tough call to keep from being run over? yes. invariably, the skilled player will have you make that tough call when he has the nuts, that he is betting into with like A high. to you, it will look like a bad streak. just consider, however, how many bad streaks get started when you make that first mistake, slightly mar your image, try to recover your image by making a move that has negative ev without factoring in the image enhancement it might give you, which you think gives the move positive ev, but since it's a negative ev on paper your odds of winning go down, and now you find yourself calling to show grit with a hopeless hand. and that further mars your image. now, you fire out with KQo from UTG because you reason that if you flop solidly you will be called all the way. so you set out to use the losses to get called because people call you down when your losing. but you must act quickly while your losses are fresh in everyone's mind. so you enter with KQo from UTG because you need to get those calls in right away. only you get raised now, and then reraised. and you think that they are raising to isolate you, which is just what you want. and so you call.

now, the whole session is a disaster.

so do not call with K6s hoping to flop your draw when EP's are limping in. these type decisions are the ones that snowball because it's hard to understand why you shouldn't be doing that. terrible pre-flop call. the beginning of a losing session.

[Manzanita]

Schmed,

On the first hand just calling with your pocket Tens preflop in a multiway pot is the best play. On the flop you should be thinking about narrowing the field as your overpair is very vulnerable. If there's a good chance that it will get checked to a player in late position who will bet, then go for the check-raise. But if this is unlikely to happen (i.e., the flop bet is likely to come from your left or there's a chance that no one will bet the flop) then betting out like you did is fine.

I like the way you played the second hand. Granted that K6s is a mediocre hand, but it is worth playing under the right circumstances. If it looks like the hand will go multiway without a raise (with two limpers in front and a generally passive game, this is a reasonable expectation) I would also play it. Note that you have position on the field which is a significant advantage. You caught enough of the flop to be locked into playing the hand out.

-- Manzanita

[Schmed]

I figured I was right on just calling on the first hand and but am I right in also saying that it wouldn't be wrong to raise that hand??

The second hand was my big mistake and I think Elysium hit it on a number of levels why. Image may not be everything but at least it's something. It wasn't the worst call in the world preflop but for my first time playing at that level I really should have just tossed the hand.

Thanks again y'all, comments are much appreciated.