Top pair with weak kicker out of position: I hate these hands

[Brian]

Hi,

We all get into these situations all the time. You get a free play out of the BB and Flop top pair with a weak kicker. I almost always check it if there are 5 or more people and see what happens. If the SB bets into me, easy fold. If theres a bet from EP, easy fold. But I often find myself feeling the need to get involved when the bet comes from an unknown MP or LP player. And I'm often outkicked by some sort of other trash. Here's an example:

Party 3/6. I am in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Loose EP who plays decent after the Flop limps, MP player limps, LP poster checks, Button limps, SB 2+2'er completes, I check. 6 to the Flop, 6sb.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

All check to MP who bets. LP folds, Button calls, SB folds, I raise. EP folds, MP and Button call. 3 to the Turn for 12sb (6bb).

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, MP calls. 2 to the River, 8bb.

River: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, MP calls. Results later.

-Brian

[Clarkmeister]

You played it fine.

[Bob T.]

That is how I would play it. I think it is especially important to bet the river here, because if you check, you end up paying off when you were behind, and you have almost no chance of collecting when you were ahead.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[WillMagic]

I fold to an MP bettor on the flop here. I mean, if it's a guy in LP, then there's a good enough chance that he has something like A6s or 76s and thinking that no one has a nine. But an MP bettor...he's more than likely to have a nine, and if he does he's got you outkicked.

My guess? MP turns over Q9.

Will

[Brian]

Good read, WillMagic. He had Q9o for the winner. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[ScottTheFish]

Indeed it was a good read by Will, but I don't think you can assume a LL player has top pair just because he bets from MP.

FWIW, I would play it exactly like you did. I think you drag the pot here more than often enough.

Plus I think one of the things that gives MajorKong heartburn is people routinely folding Top pair weak kicker for 1 bet on the flop.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
If the SB bets into me, easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Not to sound trite - but to me it seems like an easy raise here.

I can get a much better feel for my hand, and hopefully clean out overcards that would be inclined to call one.

[Ed Miller]

Plus I think one of the things that gives MajorKong heartburn is people routinely folding Top pair weak kicker for 1 bet on the flop.

Sometimes you should fold top pair, weak kicker for one bet on the flop. That doesn't automatically give me heartburn.

I do think that some 2+2ers are a little too enamoured with this play, though... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Lost Wages]

..if you check, you end up paying off when you were behind, and you have almost no chance of collecting when you were ahead.

Nice, I need to have that tattooed on my arm.

Lost Wages

[tripdad]

1st off, imo, mp is an idiot for calling w/q9o. he also played it wrong by not c/r'ing you on the turn. but i digress...

for you, if you are not comfortable playing this,or any others like it, fold it. you should have bet out on the flop. then if you are c/r'ed, you can fold if you wish. by you c/r'ing on the flop, you can't gain the most important info to continue.

this brings up my biggest question too, though... i have seen a lot of players at 2/4 party limping w/trash aces. then, when the flop comes A,trash,trash, and it is checked to them, they check as well. invariably, i'll hold KJ or comparable and the turn will bring the K or the J, and i'll bet out, thinking i'm good. i invariably get called--not raised--all the way to showdown, and i'm beat.

the question: why do these people keep this junk, and then not bet it? and not raise it? what are they wanting the flop to be? i don't get it. am i missing something?

i myself will keep a trashy ace in the small blind w/o a raise, but i'll be a monkey's mama if i'm not going to bet out if an ace flops.

what gives?

cheers!

[Joshua]

I would at least consider just check-calling the river. But maybe that's just the new passive me.

[Brian]

Hi Joshua,

As Bob T. said, this is clear value bet on the River. This is a value bet that Ed describes as the "Fk I am out of position" value bet. If you check, he will take a free showdown with worse hands, and he will bet hands that beat you. If I had checked the River, he would have bet his Q9, and I would've lost the 1 bet either way. But if he held a hand like A6, he would check behind and take the free showdown, in which case I would've missed out on a bet. This topic is discussed in detail in Theory of Poker's chapter entitled "Heads Up On The End".

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi Sarge,

In general, when a SB bets out into a large field, he's either betting a draw or betting top pair. This is a drawless board so he would probably be betting top pair (or better), and theres a good chance he has me outkicked. Lacking a specific read on my opponent, it is an easy fold. Even if the board were more draw-oriented, say if the Flop were 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, thus making it a good chance he could be betting a hand like T8 or 2 spades, you still have to fold. The combination of its being expensive to find out whether or not hes on a draw or has top pair, the fact that he can hit his draw and still win, and the fact that there are 4 players left to act behind you who could have top pair or better, and you must fold. Ah, the perils of being out of position.

This topic is discussed in detail in HPFAP. My book is currently loaned out, but I believe it is in the section "Playing Trash from the BB" or something like that. He also discusses in that chapter that when you Flop top pair with a trashy kicker from the BB, it is usually best to check and formulate a plan after that. If the bet comes from EP, again, you would apply the same logic that you would use if the SB had bet out. But if it comes from LP, go ahead and check-raise to eliminate some of the field.

If I were to play this hand, I would definitely raise. But I think that this is one of those situations where raising is clearly better than calling, but folding is best of all.

-Brian

[Bob T.]

Lets say that you get to the river, and are going to lose this 60% of the time.

If you check, and call, and your opponent bets 70% of the time, the 60% when he wins, and another 10% when you do, then you will be behind a net .5 big bets on the river.

If you instead bet, and your opponent calls you 90% of the time, you will win 30%, and lose 60%, and end up being behind a net .3 big bets at the river. So you reduce your loss by .2 big bets by betting out in this situation.

In an online game, situations like this might come up twice an hour, so if you keep betting, you might hold on to an extra half a big bet by playing aggressively.

Add in the meta-considerations that being the aggressor gives you, and I think this bet is somewhere between automatic, and no-brainer. One of my favorite hands, I flopped good, but not good enough, and was the aggressor all hand. At the end, my opponent turned over a fairly nice hand, and took the pot, but his buddies started razzing him, because he couldn't find a raise anywhere. He points at me and says 'I can never figure out where he's at, I was afraid to raise, because he is just like those vegas guys who keep firing chips into the pot.'

Yesterday, my wife drank the last beer in the house in the afternoon, and I wanted one after I was done playing in the evening, so I went down to the cardroom to get a beer. I was sweating a 7-handed 8-16 game, and the guy from the story above says 'open seat here, Bob'. I told him that I was there for the coronas, and not the poker, and then he said, 'If it keeps you out of the game, I'm buying'. Who says image isn't valueable? /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[webiggy]

I also subscribe to the idea that you're better off betting out than checking. It will not only get you the info you need, but can cause some players to fold who may have otherwise stuck around. If you get callers, you can check & call to the river to minimize your exposure to chip leaks since you will likely have the weaker hand. The problem with raising here is that I think there are too many players involved in the pot in order to make this play effective. Why c/r against 5 players on the flop? You're not going to get a free card; you're not going to win the pot; the check isn't really bluff inducing as you be sure that a player with a decent hand will put money in the pot. I'm afraid in this position it only serves to get you heads-up against a player with a better hand IMO.

I believe, and I could be wrong, that you save your check/raise for the turn to get your Q9o opponent to second guess his hand, particularly since there's a str on the board when the 5 hits. Again though, you're up against a player who will not fold his hand, even if your betting suggests you might have him beat. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Joshua]

Your (and others) reasoning makes sence. I've gone from being a maniac to passive Pete. Hopefully I will land somewhere in the middle.

[Joshua]

This hand got me thinking. What if your opponent bluff-raises you 5% of the time you bet. If you allways fold this hand to a raise you will lose a pot of 8 big bets which you else would have won. -8 * 0.05 = - 0.4 big bets. So our hero has to call the raise and hope that his opponent doesn't raise with many legitimate hands (so the pot-odds favor a call).

I think the conlusion is to bet the river and fold to a raise against ABC-players, bet the river and call a raise against bluffaholics and dare I suggest checking against tough players? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

(Maybe a better strategy against tough players would be to change table /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[Bob T.]

think the conlusion is to bet the river and fold to a raise against ABC-players, bet the river and call a raise against bluffaholics and dare I suggest checking against tough players?


That is a reasonable plan. But you have to bet against tough players some of the time also, they will frequently make calls on the river, when they are behind, just because the odds indicate it.

[Joshua]

Thanks for the lesson. I think this has been a major leak in my game.

Best Regards
Joshua