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Phat Mack
02-09-2004, 01:58 AM
I was in Seattle for a week, so I thought I'd check out some poker games.

First, let me tell you that I had a bad moment when arriving in Seattle. I noticed that I was the only male in the airport not wearing one of those Old Navy two-tone-40's-retro fleece jackets with the zipper pocket on the breast. I thought there must be a mandatory dress code. I assumed that clearing immigration would be futile without one, like trying to enroll in a Japanese high school without a sailor suit, but after making enquiries I was informed that domestic passengers were exempt from clearing immigration, so I snuck downstairs, grabbed my rental and made good my escape.

Another weird thing about Seattle: most of the drivers were competent. By competent, I mean they seem to understand how to operate motor vehicles in a way designed to get them to their destinations in the least amount of time, while at the same time driving minimizing the risk of killing themselves and their fellow humans. They merge effortlessly. They use turn signals for turns and lane changes. They not only stop at red lights, but at stop signs as well. I've always thought that the best drivers were the California drivers of the 1960's. Seattle drivers were as good, if not better. Anybody else ever notice this?

Anyway, I was talking about poker. I'm not an expert no-limt player, never have been--never will be, but I think it's one of the most fun poker formats--I'd rather play it than craps any day of the week because it provides the additional enjoyment of watching people engaged in more complex thinking behavior. I was particularly interested in the no limit game at Tulalip, so I drove up there on a friday night to check it out. No Limit seems to be growing in popularity in with the public-cardroom set. It's a strange version, however--one where the buy-ins and re-buys are capped. I think this particular format has spread, like crabgrass, from the internet poker rooms. I had never experienced capped-buy no-limit, but thinking it might be the wave of the future, I wanted to check it out.

(I don't know for sure, but everybody I have talked to seems to think that the capped-buy format was developed for two reasons: to prevent people from losing the farm playing poker (limit players never go broke); and to preserve the meritocracy of poker by preventing trust-funders from buying big stacks and chip-whipping the table (players who get big stacks by sucking out are somehow prevented from doing this). Well, as far as protecting the player's rolls is concerned, I always thought that was why we had limited-buy-in tournament poker; to let people buy in for $100, get $5000 worth of chips, and play just like the big boys. I've never bought the myth that No Limit breaks fish faster than limit, but I'm tired of beating my head against that all, so let's move on...)

I find Tulalip Casino, find a parking space, find the poker room, and the first thing I notice is No Smoking. This is good. I was born addicted to tobacco, I'll die addicted to tobacco, but I'm currently off the stuff and don't want to be around it. The second thing I notice is, of all things, an old-fashioned water cooler with the bottle on the top and the tube of cups on the side. I feel strongly about so few things, but I think every poker room should have a water cooler just like this one. Free Water! If only Bush had heard such a slogan before he was distracted by Iraq. I'm headed to the board to sign up, but am so overwhelmed by the sight of this water cooler that I amble over to it and help myself to a cup instead. The third thing I notice is that Tulalip uses blue $1 chips. This is not a deal breaker, however, since I am a citizen of a diverse America, and can accept all sorts of aberrant life choices.

Having finished my cup of free water, I proceed to the board. A lot of thought was given to the placement of the board in the Tulalip poker room. It's not elevated, so it's difficult to see from anywhere more than six feet away. It's on the far side of the room at the furthest point from the two doors. It has no easy access; you have to sidle between tables to get to it. In fact, if there are more than two people talking to the brush, you can't get to it. It is the result of a lot of thought and hard work by somebody who really hated poker.

I get put on the list for the no limit game (there are two tables going), my wife gets put on the list for 10-20 hold 'em, and our comical sidekick gets seated immediately in a hi-lo stud game. Having completed my sign-up mission, I decide to give someone else a chance to sign up, and retreat back to the cashier's area which has some open space suitable for loitering. I should use my waiting time productively, sweating the games for example, but instead decide to take advantage of one of the perks of casino poker, a complimentary copy of Cardplayer magazine. I look for one. What attracts my attention instead is a rack of fliers about the different Tulalip poker attractions. One flier is about tournaments. Another that catches my eye says, "LIVE ACTION NO-LIMIT HOLD 'EM."

This sheet explains the game: must buy in for $100; can't re-buy until you are down to $25 or less; can't buy in for more than $100; short buys must be followed by full buys; blinds are 3-5; chips crossing the line are a bet unless you verbalize your action, etc. etc. We'll have more about this later.

Motivated by my reading, I decide to skip reading Cardplayer, and sweat the action. Back to the board, squeeze close enough to read the no limit table numbers, try and figure out where the tables are. I walk over to a couch-like bench mounted to an adjacent wall and scope it out. One of the tables is filled with old guys. By "old guys" I mean men my age. I think to myself, "Uh oh, Rocks!" The other table seats a much younger crowd that seems to be more engaged in talking, arguing and whining--probably the table where I want to play. There was nothing at the board to indicate a must-move game, so I probably can get to it eventually.

I watch the "good" table. There are a couple of players wearing dark glasses and baseball caps. When the action is on them, for twenty seconds they stare at a spot on the table half-way between their stack and the flop. Then they look right for five seconds. Then they look left for five seconds. Then they act. At first I wonder if a freak winter storm has blown up a couple of aspiring 10-20 pros from the Mirage. No, after a little observation I realized I was witnessing the Power of Television. These guys had been receiving both fashion tips and playing tips from the WPT: they have flopped bottom pair, and are trying to contain themselves.

Soon I'm called, and am seated in the "good" game. After ten minutes, a brush comes over and says, "Moe, must move to the other NL game." Moe moves. Aha! so it's a must-move game--nobody had said anything. Twenty minutes later, another brush comes over and says, "Larry, must move to the other NL game." Larry moves. Twenty minutes later, a third brush comes over and says, "Curly, there's a seat open in the other NL game. You want it?" Curly says no. Good news. They've either changed it because they think two games will make, or it's must-move status is open to interpretation. I am liking the table I'm at, and want to stay put.

One of the best features of any No Limit game is the floor show. It has been my experience that No Limit games attract a disproportionate amount of players with Histrionic Personality Disorder, or, as they are called in the vernacular, Drama Queens. The actions provided by other forms of poker (check, bet, raise and fold) are joined in No Limit by another, more popular, option: Dramatize. Happily, or unhappily, depending on your point of view, at least eighty percent of the Tulalip players hadn't caught on to the need for agonized contemplation or five-minute stare-fests to accompany any bet of over, say, $20. This was my first NL hold 'em game that proceeded at a pace of over fifteen hands an hour. This might be the influence of TV, with its well-behaved or well-edited players, or perhaps of tournaments, with their plethora of rules. All-in-all, the Tulalip players weren't yet up to speed when it came to slowing down the game.

People had told me that the dealers at Tulalip were bad. I found the opposite to be true. Most of the ones I met were competent and professional, but some seemed inexperienced in No Limit. Understandable because it is such a weird game. None of them had any trouble making all the side pots that overwhelm most NL dealers, but some of the arcane rules threw them. Apparently, Tulalip has a rule that when there is only one active player in a hand with chips remaining, the active players must turn over their hands before the cards are run out. In other words, if there are two players in a pot, and one goes all-in on the flop, both players must turn over their hands before fourth and fifth street are dealt. I have often seen this done in a ring game as a courtesy, but have never before seen it made mandatory. This rule lead to an interesting situation.

Fourth street; three clubs on the board; two players. First Player has $243, Second Player has him covered. First Player takes his loose stack of $43 in his hand, places it over the line, counts out $20, then pulls his hand and the remaining $23 back. Dealer looks at him and says, "You have to go all in."

First Player says, "What?"

Dealer: "You moved the entire stack over the line, you have to put in the other $23."

"OK."

Second Player calls the $43. Fifth street is a club; First Player checks; Second Player checks; First Player turns over 4c4s and says, "Flush." Second Player says, "You win," and throws his hand in, face down. Now comes the interesting part. The dealer turns to Second Player and tells him to turn over his hand.

Second Player: "Huh?"

Dealer: "Turn your hand over, we've got an all-in player."

Second Player turns his hand over. He has a black king, but it's not a club. I usually stay out of these things, but I suggest to the dealer that, in this land of the strong NRA lobby, it wasn't a good idea to make Second Player turn over his hand as neither he had clearly intended to muck it, and neither player was all-in. "No, but he was all-in with his bet." Okaaaay.......

Now let's discuss how bright I am. I play for three or so hours, get lucky and get 900 in front of me. The game is slowing down. The next biggest stack has less than 200. I'm thinking of hopping. Much to my delight, a kid sits down, starts talking smack, and proceeds to lose a couple of buy-ins. The kid has been drinking. A second kid sits down, and the first kid, with little or no trouble, proceeds to talk him into drinking shots. I think to myself that if I can win some pots from these guys, they'll get irritated, buy enough to cover me and come after my stack. What's wrong with this picture? I'm a supposedly sane adult, I'm in a game with a max re-buy of $100, and I'm patiently waiting for a chance to motivate someone to re-buy for $900. It took me a half hour of searching for an opportunity to isolate a Shot-Drinking Kid before a little light bulb went on over my head. I love those Aha! moments. I looked around like a cat caught doing something stupid to see if anyone had been reading my thoughts for the last half hour, but apparently no one had.

My only immediate option was to play my stack against small ones, which is an art unto itself and can be fun in the right circumstances, but can more often resemble work--or to split. I chose the later and booked a nice win.

It seemed like an interesting game. The players were having fun. Not exactly what I'm used to; more of a compromise between the anarchy of a full-blown ring game, and the cost-controlling structure of a tourney. Let's call it a ongoing tournament with flextime entry and flextime egress. I'll be interested to see what long-term legs these games have.

slavic
02-09-2004, 02:27 AM
You didn't mention the max bet of $500.

I've looked at the game but didn't play in it just because the format seems bad to me. The 10/20 is very soft though but not as popular as the NL game, and I haven't seen the 15/30 go.

It really is a nice card room, I'd like to see it grow to somthing reasonable but it just doesn't get the action that the Muck does.

Oh and your comments on the board and the brush... my thoughts exactly.

Brian
02-09-2004, 08:01 AM
Hi Phat_Mack,

More trip reports etc. please. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I enjoyed reading that one.

-Brian

Greg (FossilMan)
02-09-2004, 11:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's a strange version, however--one where the buy-ins and re-buys are capped. I think this particular format has spread, like crabgrass, from the internet poker rooms. I had never experienced capped-buy no-limit, but thinking it might be the wave of the future, I wanted to check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree, the concept seems to have sprouted on the internet. I had never heard of it before it appeared online.

[ QUOTE ]
This sheet explains the game: must buy in for $100; can't re-buy until you are down to $25 or less; can't buy in for more than $100; short buys must be followed by full buys; blinds are 3-5; chips crossing the line are a bet unless you verbalize your action, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Capping the buyin is a mediocre idea at best, IMO. Capping it at 20xBB is ridiculous. They've made what should be a great game into not much more than a card-catching contest, at least when played by semi-skilled or better players. Let's say I make a pot-sized raise to $15. Now you think you've got a better hand, so you want to reraise. A pot-sized reraise will be half a buy-in, so you might as well just go all-in instead. Two decisions in the whole hand. Total crapola.

The MINIMUM buyin for a game with a $5 big blind should be $100 for PL, maybe $200 for NL. Even the online sites that started the concept have a max buyin of at least 50xBB (Party), and more commonly 100xBB. 20xBB is a joke.

I just came back from a trip to SoCal. Played one night at Oceans 11. I hated their NLH game, and it had a more reasonable $200 cap for a 3,5 blind game. Also, their rebuys were more liberal. You could add $100 to your stack anytime you were below $200, so a common tactic was to tip the dealer $1, and then buy $100 more in chips. Now we're up to 60xBB (yeah, OK, 59.8xBB), which is starting to approach rationality. Personally, I prefer the 1000xBB buyin. In a PLO8 live game at the Bicycle earlier this year I got $7000 into the pot in a 3,5 blind game, so it's not like a buyin of that size is irrelevant. Not as long as anybody else has anywhere near as much.

I hope this trend doesn't infect all big bet games. Much of the profitability of the game goes away, at least for me.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

turnipmonster
02-09-2004, 11:44 AM
I agree 100%. in my 5-5 PL game, 100xBB is a very short stack. most people have at least 1.5k on the table.

--turnipmonster

RcrdBoy
02-09-2004, 01:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Another weird thing about Seattle: most of the drivers were competent. By competent, I mean they seem to understand how to operate motor vehicles in a way designed to get them to their destinations in the least amount of time, while at the same time driving minimizing the risk of killing themselves and their fellow humans. They merge effortlessly. They use turn signals for turns and lane changes. They not only stop at red lights, but at stop signs as well. I've always thought that the best drivers were the California drivers of the 1960's. Seattle drivers were as good, if not better. Anybody else ever notice this?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say Seattle area drivers were good.

As a guy that puts in 30k miles a year in the Puget Sound area, I assure you that your experience wasn't typical.

[ QUOTE ]

People had told me that the dealers at Tulalip were bad. I found the opposite to be true. Most of the ones I met were competent and professional, but some seemed inexperienced in No Limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only played the limit tables there and I found the dealers fine. The one thing that seemed to be a theme, though, was many were complaining about working 12 and 15 hour shifts because they were short staffed.

Just this past Saturday I saw some dealers that were running on fumes and mistakes were being made (a couple of pots shoved to the wrong person, rake not being taken).

What are typical hours for dealers? Is this really out of hand or more par for the course?

-Mike

Ed Miller
02-09-2004, 02:27 PM
...they seem to understand how to operate motor vehicles in a way designed to get them to their destinations in the least amount of time, while at the same time driving minimizing the risk of killing themselves and their fellow humans. They merge effortlessly. They use turn signals for turns and lane changes. They not only stop at red lights, but at stop signs as well.

I didn't appreciate this in my two years living there... I took it for granted (I'm a little young and didn't do much driving until I lived in Seattle). Having moved to Las Vegas...

...oh to drive in Seattle again.

Phat Mack
02-09-2004, 02:54 PM
A pot-sized reraise will be half a buy-in, so you might as well just go all-in instead. Two decisions in the whole hand. Total crapola.

This is how I appproached the game. I just assumed I would be all-in before or on the flop. Most of the players were playing it like spread-limit, however, with $10 flop bets and $15 raises

The MINIMUM buyin for a game with a $5 big blind should be $100 for PL, maybe $200 for NL.

This is a fascinating subject for me. I would probably prefer a bigger buy-in for PL than NL. I once played regularly in a 1-2-4 PL game with a $500 buy-in. I tried to recruit players from a PL 5-10, $300 buy-in game to play in it. They scoffed; the game wasn't big enough. But the 1-2-4 game was bigger! I knew that because I counted all the pots in both games. Bigger buy-ins in PL meant bigger bets on later streets, which favor better players. (I always suspected that the 5-10 players knew that the 1-2-4 game would require a different skill set.)

On the other hand, I expect for NL players to get their money in before the flop or on it. Making a bigger buy-in doesn't seem to slow them down any. But having a lower buy-in lets short stacks into the game to take shots at the big ones. To me, this controls the game and makes it more interesting, because bullies a forced to show down more hands against all-in players.

In NL, I've always been as interested in how much money players had in their pockets as in how much they had on the table. I thought it would be interesting to stipulate a minimum number of buy-ins that players had to bring to a NL game. Let's say we have ten players with $1000 in their pockets. A 1-2 NL game with a $100 minimum buy-in might have more action than a 5-10 game with $500 buy-in. In one game, the players would have ten bullets, in the bigger game only two. I suspect that a game where it is known that all players are firing ten bullets would have more action.

Phat Mack
02-09-2004, 03:00 PM
You didn't mention the max bet of $500

I didn't mention this because it never came up in the game. I was told by a player that this is state law. Perhaps you can clarify something. Is the $500 the max bet, or the max a player can put in the pot in any one hand?

Greg (FossilMan)
02-09-2004, 03:31 PM
There is a reason I think the minimum buyin needs to be bigger for NL.

In either game, if there are very short stacks who are going all-in preflop, the game tends to lose all the action. For example, in a 5,5 PLH game where everybody has plenty of chips, I'd almost always play small pairs, suited connectors, and suited Ax in early position. I might call, I might raise, but I would seldom fold. Now, if instead there are 3-4 players behind me with stacks short enough that they're going to fold or go all-in preflop, I'm going to fold these hands. Why put in $5-20 if you know you're going to be forced to fold when the short-stack goes all-in for $20-100 and you won't have pot odds to call?

Once these short stacks learn to fold or go all-in, it kills the game. Either they steal the blinds + limps, or they get called and we watch a hand of showdown poker. But there isn't any ACTION anymore. And that's what a deep-stacked weak player wants, ACTION. And that's how I make my money in these games. I give too much action in small pots, and then receive too much action in big pots. With the small stacks killing the action, I can't make anywhere near as much profit.

So, in a PL game, you need a minimum buyin big enough so that when somebody comes in for a full raise, they can't get most of their money in. Thus, with 5,5 blinds, if the minimum buy-in is $100, they can only get in 20% of their stack preflop unassisted. As such, you can play them for 20%, with the remaining 80% at risk after the flop has potentially changed the situation dramatically. In NL games, you need a higher minimum, so as to dissuade these one-trick ponies. If somebody does want to go all-in for $200 into a $10-20 pot, I don't mind, as they'll soon learn that it's a mistake. They won't get a good enough hand often enough to stay ahead of the blinds, and if they loosen up enough to stay ahead of the blinds, they'll end up trapping themselves against a better hand and get broke. So, since the risk outweighs the reward for these players, I don't mind if they continue their antics, even if it does still tend to kill the action.

Viva la ACTION!

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Yeknom58
02-09-2004, 04:08 PM
Out of the big cities with big traffic problems, NYC, DC, LA, Boston, Seattle. Seattle has the best drivers by a very large margin.

I was there this past saturday and I think they have some management problems. They had 2 NL tables going with no list and open seats while their others lists were 25 deep. In addition they had an open table because of the shortage of dealers.

wayabvpar
02-09-2004, 04:18 PM
I must have an idiot magnet on my car, because I find no shortage of unbelievably clueless drivers in the Puget Sound area. I also may be slightly less tolerant, having driven for a living in my past.

As I have mentioned in the past, I have been suitably unimpressed with the Tulalip poker room. From the board's location (it really IS as bad as the first post made out), to the dealers just clock-watching and not enforcing the rules properly, to the godawful tournament setups ($200 in chips to start a tourney, with 10/20 blinds? Yikes!)...I have only had one session there that didn't give me a headache. To get there on a weekday after work takes the patience of Job, carpool or not. As the DRF likes to say- "like others better".

If the games were juicy enough, I would change my mind in a big fat hurry, however /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edited to add- great post, Phat. You are cordially invited to post as many trip reports as you have time to write.

DonWaade
02-09-2004, 09:17 PM
I have been an avid reader of yours (and this forum) for quite awile and albeit not reg'd for too long. I loved your post and would encourage you to post more stories/annecdotes. As a caveat to your observations on the drinving in PS area, I love it and long for days caught in traffic on I-5 rather than any other locale. With regards to some of the pundits that replied, I too am from the area and (not anymore) and find NW drivers to be some of the most courteous. Take care and TYVM for a most enjoyable post.

Phat Mack
02-11-2004, 06:23 PM
I had to think about your post for a while.

Now, if instead there are 3-4 players behind me with stacks short enough that they're going to fold or go all-in preflop, I'm going to fold these hands. Why put in $5-20 if you know you're going to be forced to fold when the short-stack goes all-in for $20-100 and you won't have pot odds to call?

I have noticed the same phenomenon, and agree with you. This states my case for why I like big buys in PL games. Occasionally, In NL as well as PL, I can catch a big hand and use a short-stacked player to trap a third player, but that doesn't happen as often as the action-killing scenario.

So, in a PL game, you need a minimum buyin big enough so that when somebody comes in for a full raise, they can't get most of their money in. Thus, with 5,5 blinds, if the minimum buy-in is $100, they can only get in 20% of their stack preflop unassisted.

OK, I see your point now. As long as the PL buy-in can't kill the pre-flop action, you're satisfied with it. I agree. I think this number varies with the players, stack sizes, my position in relation to the short stacks /images/graemlins/smile.gif , and of course, the blind structure. In some games, these short stacks never go "unassisted," and it has to be considered when they will kill, and when they will promote, action.

I give too much action in small pots, and then receive too much action in big pots.

Right, and your big pots come from action on later streets. Loose canons BTF can prevent you from ever seeing these later streets against richer opponents. I've played in NL stud games where this was certainly true. In the NL hold 'em games that I have access to, action tends to take place earlier, and short stacks are accepted as a fact of life. I certainly see how your thinking is correct for your games.

I think our NL philosophy might be different, but I see why you are a successful player.

slavic
02-12-2004, 01:03 AM
Is the $500 the max bet, or the max a player can put in the pot in any one hand?

The max bet a person can make on a table game is $500 but I believe multiple bets are exempted. Or I've broken the law a few times. I've played a couple 20/40 hands that got there on overs. I've also watched a 50/100 on 100/200 overs get there on the flop.

The thing is all of this is on Indian land and it's hard to tell what "state" laws really apply.

theBruiser500
02-12-2004, 05:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
but I see why you are a successful player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phat Mack, what specifically are you referring to in FossilMan's play that you think makes him successful? BTW, nice trip report.

Fossilman, perhaps you could humor me and answer this off topic question, how did you get $7,000 in the pot in your 3-5 PLO8 game??

danny

Phat Mack
02-12-2004, 06:20 AM
Phat Mack, what specifically are you referring to in FossilMan's play that you think makes him successful?

He has a well-developed strategy, and has put a great deal of thought in the tactics necessary to execute it. JMO

Greg (FossilMan)
02-12-2004, 10:12 AM
I forget the exact numbers on each street now, but it went something like this (but I do know it was $7K each from both of us).

I have Ah2hAd4d. There is a raise and a couple of calls before it gets to me. I reraise to something like $200, get called by the big stack behind me, and 1 or 2 others. Flop is 3h5hTd (might have been 9d or Jd, something like that, but definitely a diamond). Checked to me, I bet about $600, big stack raises to $1500, others fold, I call. Turn is 8d, giving me nut low, both nut flush draws, and a big straight draw. I bet out, he raises all-in, I call.

He has A225, with the 5c. I have 3/4 of the pot right now. If a 4s or 4c comes, he and I will split. If the 5s comes, he gets 3/4. Any other card in the deck, and I still get 3/4.

I asked him if he wanted to deal it twice. He said "What's the point?"

River was 5s.

Sigh.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

daryn
02-12-2004, 01:59 PM
what is up with that "deal it twice" proposition? i think i have heard it somewhere before but i am unclear as to what it means.

Ulysses
02-12-2004, 02:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what is up with that "deal it twice" proposition? i think i have heard it somewhere before but i am unclear as to what it means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some rooms will let you "deal" with other players to deal out multiple boards after you go all-in. In Greg's example, he suggested dealing the river twice. The pot would be split in half and one pot decided based on the first river and the second pot decided on the second river. It reduces variance, as in this case, it would guarantee Greg at least 3/8 of the pot (in the worst-case scenario that the 5s was one river and one of the two chop cards was the other river) vs. the worst-case scenario of 1/4 without dealing. The flip side is that if the first river is a safe card, he would have won 3/4 of the pot without dealing. Now the second river is a chop card. So, he wins 3/4(1/2) + 1/2(1/2) = 5/8 instead of 3/4. You get the idea.

Here's a good thread on the topic: Limon's deal-making strategy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=489073&Fo rum=All_Forums&Words=1242&Match=Username&Searchpag e=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=489073&Search=true# Post489073)

theBruiser500
02-12-2004, 04:34 PM
Thanks for the story Fossilman.

danny

WalleyeJason
02-17-2004, 03:30 PM
The MINIMUM buyin for a game with a $5 big blind should be $100 for PL, maybe $200 for NL. Even the online sites that started the concept have a max buyin of at least 50xBB (Party), and more commonly 100xBB. 20xBB is a joke.

This is exactly why I dont play the NL game at Tulalip.

I have talked to the managment and wrote a letter trying to get them to make the max buyin 200 and 1-2 blinds, but apparently they dont, or cant change it.

Oh well, Ill stick to the 10-20 game.

limon
02-17-2004, 04:31 PM

Greg (FossilMan)
02-17-2004, 06:04 PM
It was a one-off event.

I was asking the floorman to start an interest list for PLH or PLO. He said to not waste my time, it wouldn't go. I was complaining about this at the table in my 20-40 stud8 game, and the guy next to me said he'd be happy to play me in a heads-up PLO8 game. I agreed, and the floor had a dealer so agreed to spread it. We ended up starting 4 or 5 handed, and were full with a list within 30 minutes.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

felson
02-17-2004, 07:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the guy next to me said he'd be happy to play me in a heads-up PLO8 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this hilarious, as Fossilman is one of the last people on earth I'd want to play heads-up big-bet with. Was the guy any good?

limon
02-17-2004, 07:14 PM
thats the way it always works. for over a year i started a $1-2 or $5-5 NL game at that god forsaken place every wednesday after the NL tourney and without fail every single week they told me the game wouldnt go and then by 11pm we'd have 2 tables. i was happy to work for free cause the games were so soft and they were raking them wrong ($1.50 in the $1-2 game & $5 per half hour in the $5-5 game) then they took the rakes through the roof and i quit coming. i only go to the bike now for Legends.

Phat Mack
02-17-2004, 08:04 PM
This is exactly why I dont play the NL game at Tulalip.

I don't know how long they have been spreading it, but if it remains popular, they might be persuaded to spread a real game. I tried to talk to the manager about another subject, but he didn't seem interested in schmoozing the customers. Maybe he was having a hard night.

Oh well, Ill stick to the 10-20 game

As Slavic mentioned, there's no reason not to play the 10-20 there. The short-stacked NL was fun, but while the format offered opportunities to lose some money, there was no way to make any. Not a good situation in NL. There was one guy at the table that I suspected of being a good player, and I watched him get tortured by the deck. He kept playing well while people were taking shots at him, but there was no way for him to take advantage of situation.

Greg (FossilMan)
02-17-2004, 08:33 PM
Let's just say, he sure thought he was.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)