AK out of position v. best player 10-10-20NL

[Ulysses]

Best player at the table (very tough pro w/ about $2500) opens for 80 UTG+2 or so. Folded to me in SB. I have about $2100 and AKo. What now?

[turnipmonster]

will your opponent ever open limp (it's 40 to go, right?), or is that pretty much his standard open? also, is the big blind doing the two card shuffle, or counting his chips?

if it's likely to be heads up, I vote for calling and checkraising the flop. I think the important factors to consider are the level of respect VTP has for you, and how often he'll try to steamroll you here.

--turnipmonster

[SpaceAce]

Since all we know is he's a "very tough pro", I say reraise. If you can't play AK against this guy, it seems that you've pretty much decided to roll over and play dead in any pot he opens. You're out of position but I don't think that's reason enough to dump AK here unless you think he can straight outplay you no matter what falls.

Of course, I don't play against any tough pros, so what do I know?

SpaceAce

[sam h]

Honestly, I think raising is the worst option here. I don't want to put in 250-300 out of position with only AK and then feel compelled to bluff at a lot of boards when I miss against a tough player.

I would probably call and checkraise if an A or K hits. But I don't agree with the people that say folding here is way too weak. AKo isn't a great NL hand with fairly deep stacks and the importance of position is magnified against a tough player. There's no shame in folding here. NL is all about picking your spots, and there's nothing wrong with resolving not to mess with the big dogs in marginal situations.

[ML4L]

[gaylord focker]

I think your best option is to just call. The problem is, if he is a tough player, your not going to break him with that hand. If he has queens or jacks or whatever, you arn't gonna get paid off when the ace hits. If the board comes ragged, he will probably get aggresive with you and possibly get you off the best hand. I'd be cautious and look to get your chips in agaist someone else. I like the idea of calling preflop, and checkraising the flop if an A or K falls. If you miss you miss, no big deal. Also, what are his EP raising standards? A lot of tough no limit players are capable of bringing a lot of hands for a raise even from early position so that might change things. Was this game at the Commerce?

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think raising is the worst option here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't think there's any value in raising? It seems that calling puts you in the passenger seat and then you can't play at all unless the flop hits you. You might as well fold, then, since you're going to be forced to lay it down unless you smash top pair off the bat.

Whatever. I guess this is why I don't play against tough pros /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpaceAce

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
So you don't think there's any value in raising? It seems that calling puts you in the passenger seat and then you can't play at all unless the flop hits you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the tough player was very likely to fold to a reraise then maybe raising has value. Most tough players, especially live, aren't folding here very often though for another 150-200. They're calling with the hope of breaking you or pushing you off a better hand. Which is why I'd much rather be in the position of missing the flop and check folding after calling preflop than of missing the flop and having to decide whether to bet out or not after reraising preflop. Sure, sometimes you'll get a fold. But sometimes you'll bet 400 into a T72r flop and get called. At that point, you're probably done with the hand and have pissed away $700 to your toughest opponent out of position with Ace high when you could have probably sat on your stack and waited to trap one of the idiots at the table with a big hand.

[theriverwild]

I'll actually come in for a good rr. It depends on how he plays though. Would he typically limp rr with a big pair AA or KK. but that's unlikely since u have AK. A good pro will prefer to outplay the players on later streets than put a lot of it at risk preflop. I think you should raise the pot after calling his bet. You've taken controll of the hand. The other option is to lead out into him with a big bet regardless of what hits after just calling his bet, a bit bigger than the pot should be fine. Although with the 2nd option you r giving him a chance to hit his hand and you're have no idea what he has since u didn't rr preflop.

[theriverwild]

BTW a lot of people even some pro's will virtually always limp rr with AA or KK. If u know that's how he plays i'd surely bet so much that no matter what hits we r both stuck for all out chips. You'd be surprised what hands he'd lay down. QQ JJ. He doesn't want to risk all his chips preflop with anything but a lock. When u smack him with a big rr that's what you're doing. And you eliminate the fact that you're out of position on all betting rounds. I think the most important thing is don't give him any odds to break u with a lot of the marginal hands a pro would open with. Don't let him risk 80 to win 2100. if u flop top pair can he run u off of it? One of the best ways to stop from getting killed by better players postflop is to not let them see the flop cheaply with your good hands.

[Acesover8s]

Just call preflop, it makes your hand harder to read against a player who is most likely a good hand reader.

I'm not checkraising if an A or K flops unless the board is well coordinated. I like check-call, check-call, bet, or check-call, check-raise.

But I don't play 10-10-20 either. . .

[Garland]

I'd call with the intent of checkraising the flop if an A or K appears. If he reraises even that, I'd say it's time to drop the hand. However, when it's all said and done it's certainly worth a play.

BTW, I'm not an expert at no-limit. I have played 1-2 blinds at Binion's. I'd have to say that it was a lot of fun (even though I had a lot of hands cracked).

Garland

[Robk]

I call, and then I play an ace or king damn timid after that (although I'd make a play on some flops I missed). I think checkraising top pair here is not the way to go.Your hand is too good to fold, but if a big pot gets played you rate to get broke, not him. Good players aren't going to lose a big pot to you if you manage to outkick him, but if he outflops you with some deceptive hand you're in a tough situation.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no shame in folding here. NL is all about picking your spots, and there's nothing wrong with resolving not to mess with the big dogs in marginal situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're overlooking an important point here. his open is a minimum raise, I think folding AK just because someone min raised before the flop is a weak play. All the very tough pros I've ever played with open raise quite a bit, and do it with a very, very wide range of cards. I like calling/checkraising the best, but I would reraise and fold to another reraise every time here instead of just folding.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

I believe this game is 10-10-20, 40 to open, correct?

just to clarify, I think he should checkraise the flop no matter what the hell comes /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I agree that he doesn't want to play a big pot with AK, but

- checkraising on a cheap street will do more to slow down an aggressive player than firing on the turn (which looks weird). If he called my checkraise, I might be done with the hand depending.

- the money is not all that deep here, there's a 200 pot on the flop. just check calling pot sized bets to the river is 200 + 600 + 1800 > his whole stack. sometimes (only sometimes) you have to do ugly things when playing a short stack. one of those ugly things is commiting your stack with TPTK against an overagressive player. I don't think that is the case here, though.

--turniupmonster

[cero_z]

Hi Ulysses,
You've gotten a variety of responses, many of which are good. But, I'll ask you this: How badly do the bad players play? And, is this "tough pro," involving himself in practically every hand, or is he picking his spots with generally strong cards? I ask because I see these 2 factors as being among the most important to your decision. If there are several bad players in the game, and the "pro" is not getting out of line reguarly, then you can definitely fold if you want to, or play the hand if you want (but I'd try to play a small pot if you do). The only way that you must play the hand is if this guy is in every pot, a few places to your left. If so, you are gonna have to bang heads with him eventually, and this ain't a bad spot. It's not great, but not bad. I'd likely re-raise him about 350, and expect him to fold. But there are some guys (like Hellmuth for example) who are apt to call that raise with just about anything, and then apply pressure on the flop and beyond. Against one of these guys, I flat-call, and don't get involved further unless I flop very nice (A or K high uncoordinated flop). The main problem with re-raising is that you build the pot to the point where you won't necessarily want to let it go if he calls.

[Zeno]

If he is a tough player then you know and he knows that you know that he will do a $80 raise with a range of hands (he is in ~EMP). So you need info. I would call. Then check the flop in the dark. All you have done is called his bet and then shown 'weakness'. ~$200 in the pot. Now He has to make a decision. Perhaps you can get a read on his hand by his reaction to your call and checking dark. Look at his face, neck, hands etc when the flop hits. Don't look at the flop cards at all until your opponent finishes his play, whatever it is - checking behind or betting. Only when he is done, should you look at the flop and make your decision on what to do. And do that either quickly or slowly depending on your read of the situation. It is just a suggestion for one strategy. It may or may not work.

The other important thing is what is this pros image of you like. You may have to play into that also.

-Zeno

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
will your opponent ever open limp (it's 40 to go, right?), or is that pretty much his standard open?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll do all sorts of stuff, but that is pretty standard. I think he's slightly more likely to either open for more or limp w/ KK or AA.

[ QUOTE ]
also, is the big blind doing the two card shuffle, or counting his chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think BB was going to play.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the important factors to consider are the level of respect VTP has for you, and how often he'll try to steamroll you here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've played a lot of limit and 5-5 w/ this opponent. He knows he's a lot better than me, but he also knows I'm a lot better than most of the others at the table. He'll definitely try and steamroll me in a lot of spots because he knows I'd rather tangle with others. But while he's very happy to play a big pot against me (especially w/ position), he'd rather play it against one of the others there.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't play AK against this guy, it seems that you've pretty much decided to roll over and play dead in any pot he opens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not super-excited about AKo out of position v. anyone in this game.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of calling preflop, and checkraising the flop if an A or K falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say I call. 180 in the pot. Ace/King on the flop. I check. He bets 200. I checkraise what? Pot? Minimum? All-in? I don't really like any of those options given my stack size here.

[Ulysses]

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Most tough players, especially live, aren't folding here very often though for another 150-200.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have enough money that I can't really imagine any hand he'd fold here for 150 more.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
But, I'll ask you this: How badly do the bad players play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty badly. Enough to just wait for them to play if I choose to do so.

[ QUOTE ]
And, is this "tough pro," involving himself in practically every hand, or is he picking his spots with generally strong cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's picking his spots w/ either good cards or coming into pots that will be multi-way. He has something playable this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd likely re-raise him about 350, and expect him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good plan and result to me.

[ QUOTE ]
But there are some guys (like Hellmuth for example) who are apt to call that raise with just about anything

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have a bigger stack, definitely. But I think the money is short enough here that he's unlikely to call. I was pretty sure he would either push or fold to a raise like that.

[Ulysses]

Against this opponent, I think the call/check-dark/don't-look-at-the-flop line has real merits.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
If the tough player was very likely to fold to a reraise then maybe raising has value. Most tough players, especially live, aren't folding here very often though for another 150-200. They're calling with the hope of breaking you or pushing you off a better hand. Which is why I'd much rather be in the position of missing the flop and check folding after calling preflop than of missing the flop and having to decide whether to bet out or not after reraising preflop. Sure, sometimes you'll get a fold. But sometimes you'll bet 400 into a T72r flop and get called. At that point, you're probably done with the hand and have pissed away $700 to your toughest opponent out of position with Ace high when you could have probably sat on your stack and waited to trap one of the idiots at the table with a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I can see your point about getting away cheaply after the flop and waiting to take money from someone a little softer. Still, does that really make raising the worst play here or just the one that requires the most post-flop skill (assuming both players are rougly equal in ability)?

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't play AK against this guy, it seems that you've pretty much decided to roll over and play dead in any pot he opens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not super-excited about AKo out of position v. anyone in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That puts a whole new light on this guy being the toughest at the table.

SpaceAce

[Ulysses]

Thanks for all the good responses.

I gave serious consideration to just folding and being done w/ it. Then I decided to play. I raised to 400 straight. I expected him to either fold or go all-in. With only about 1650 left, I don't think he is likely to call w/ hands just looking to bust me. He asked me how much I had left and I told him. He thought about it for quite a while and we had a nice conversation. He was considering pushing and I was considering calling. Then he folded.

Looking at this hand in isolation, I think it was fine. However, in retrospect, given the exceptional weakness of this table, I think folding might have been the better move.

[gaylord focker]

Thats true. With 200 in the pot, if he leads at it for 200 more, and you checkraise to say 500, if he comes over the top you would need to dump your hand. Perhaps just check calling the flop would be better, and then if he checks behind on the turn, you can make a small bet on the river.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't play AK against this guy, it seems that you've pretty much decided to roll over and play dead in any pot he opens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not super-excited about AKo out of position v. anyone in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That puts a whole new light on this guy being the toughest at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me rephrase/clarify that. This guy was the only really tough player in the game at this point. But there were lots of aggressive players in the game as well as deep-stacked players who can play w/ just about any two. I'm not super-excited about playing AKo out of position against anyone in a no-limit game, but I'm more than happy to tangle w/ anyone else in this game.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't play AK against this guy, it seems that you've pretty much decided to roll over and play dead in any pot he opens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not super-excited about AKo out of position v. anyone in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That puts a whole new light on this guy being the toughest at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me rephrase/clarify that. This guy was the only really tough player in the game at this point. But there were lots of aggressive players in the game as well as deep-stacked players who can play w/ just about any two. I'm not super-excited about playing AKo out of position against anyone in a no-limit game, but I'm more than happy to tangle w/ anyone else in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. I thought we might have had a misunderstanding when I saw you refer to the game's incredible weakness in another post.

I'm not suggesting that AKo is invincible but I can't imagine being too sad about peeking at my cards in the small blind and seeing it there. I find it interesting that you actually did what I thought you should have although most people seem to think it was not the way to go.

SpaceAce

[gaylord focker]

Yikes. You have big nuts. I dont think it's worth risking 400 to try to pick up the 80. If he raises you back for all your money, I assume you would have to strongy consider dumping your hand. Also, if he just smooth calls your raise, what are you going to do if the flop comes 10 2 2? I think you have to be prepared to put a whole lot of chips in pretty much regardless of what the flop is, and that's not always fun. Anyway, I respect you for being aggresive with the hand, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to put myself in that situation by reraising preflop, especially without position.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If he raises you back for all your money, I assume you would have to strongy consider dumping your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. But I'd strongly consider calling as well. That would depend on a lot of things.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if he just smooth calls your raise, what are you going to do if the flop comes 10 2 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely, I think 1600+ heads to the middle.

You make a number of good points in favor of folding (or calling, but I like folding better than calling).

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at this hand in isolation, I think it was fine. However, in retrospect, given the exceptional weakness of this table, I think folding might have been the better move.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you score any long-term points with the other players that will be useful? I assume you don't tangle with this guy enough that your bold move will have much long-term effect. Still, I like your play. Nothing really wrong with showing that your balls are made of steel, if for no other reason than a good confidence builder for yourself.

Taking all that you have said about the game and players into consideration, folding is a viable option and one that would be easy to live with - next hand.

Thanks for posting the hand, very interesting and everyone benefited from an excellent discussion.

-Zeno

[Garland]

With your 400 raise, and his thinking forever it should be obvious he doesn't have AA or KK (unless he's pulling a Hollywood, but he folded, so no). It's more likely he has QQ, JJ or AK himself and decided folding was the better part of valor. I guess pushing all-in or calling all-in removes the element of the position advantage he has on you, which is a nice thing not to worry about with a drawing hand of AK.

I'd love to play no limit again (but not at the stakes at Lucky Chances!) Maybe you can tell me more about that game when we meet sometime. I'd love to hear your description.

Garland