Pokertracker Questions, the first of many

[davidross]

Clearly I need more hands loaded to make real assesments, for example I'm losing money from the button with AQ and 99, but winning with them from every other position, but I would like to start breaking down what these stats will tell me.

WHich stats do you guys use to make assesments?

Here are some numbers from the general tab. Voluntarily put in $ - 23.28%. From the SB 28.31%. Folded SB to steal 84.78% and BB to steal 58.04%. Attempt to steal 25.99%, WInning % when seeing flop is 34.34%. BB per 100 hands is 1.06, went to showdown 32.99 and won at showdown 56.04. Pre-flop raise 10.25%.

How do these compare with anyone elses?

I'm very curious if any of you use teh database while playing? Is there a way for example to check what hands a player will 3-bet or limp-re-raise?

Many more questions to follow.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly I need more hands loaded to make real assesments, for example I'm losing money from the button with AQ and 99, but winning with them from every other position, but I would like to start breaking down what these stats will tell me.

WHich stats do you guys use to make assesments?

Here are some numbers from the general tab. Voluntarily put in $ - 23.28%. From the SB 28.31%. Folded SB to steal 84.78% and BB to steal 58.04%. Attempt to steal 25.99%, WInning % when seeing flop is 34.34%. BB per 100 hands is 1.06, went to showdown 32.99 and won at showdown 56.04. Pre-flop raise 10.25%.

[/ QUOTE ]

See also my comments in the general forum. These are my stats.

Voluntarily put in $ - 27.17%.
From the SB 38.73%.
Folded SB to steal 79.50% and
BB to steal 45.09%.
Attempt to steal 31.82%,
WInning % when seeing flop is 43.33%.
went to showdown 41.61 and
won at showdown 51.14.
Pre-flop raise 16.09%.

It looks like you may be playing too weakly after the flop. I'm coming in with weaker hands that you are, but winning significanly more often ... a lot of that might be because I'm raising more before the flop, and reducing the number of opponents I'm up against. I'm also willing to bet/call/showdown margainal hands more frequently, including stuff like bottom pair and ace high in some circumstances.

I think it's possible that you haven't adjusted as fully as you might want to from playing 10-handed. The games are really quite different, and it took me a couple of months of breakeven play before my win rate started to take off.

[stripsqueez]

i think the comparison of your voluntary put $ in the pot and % of hands won when see the flop is terrible

for me in this school its something like 22.5% winning 39% - only 8000 odd hands but that ratio is roughly mirrored in my 10/20 and 15/30 stats

that would primarily suggest that you are running bad - it might also be that you are folding a bit too much post flop or perhaps not aggressive enough post flop

i fold the SB to a raise 90% and i actually won out of the small blind in this school - you defend the blinds a little more than me

my pre-flop raise % is about 14% - that might just be a matter of style

1BB per hundred isnt a lot - hard to say what is possible 3 tables at once long term on auto-pilot by neccesity - my guess would be 5-6 for an excellent player

i cant wait to get 100,000 hands into pokertracker so i can stop giving the proviso of not a big sample space - i have about 24,000 at 5/10, 10/20, 15/30 and they are all very similar when looked at individually

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Voluntarily put in $ - 27.17%.

WInning % when seeing flop is 43.33%.


[/ QUOTE ]

wow - did you have a birthday in this period ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Requeim]

I've got around 25,000 hands at the 5/10 6 max level recorded, and here are some of my stats. Vol put $ in pot 20.49%. Folded to SB steal 84.42%, and BB to steal 57.14%. Attempt to steal 22.66%, won $ when saw flop 33.92%. BB per 100 hand is 3.18, went to showdown 32.18% and won at showdown 57.97%. Pre-flop raise percentage 12.72%.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Voluntarily put in $ - 27.17%.

WInning % when seeing flop is 43.33%.

wow - did you have a birthday in this period ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, actually (turned 26 about three weeks ago).

I've also been running crazy, crazy hot since purchasing pokertracker. This is from roughly 8000 hands.

But something like the 40% W%WSF that you're reporting seems achievable long-term.

[stripsqueez]

hey nate - i know its been your birthday but what is your BB per hand loss rate in the SB and BB over this period ? - i am a bit obsessed with this number and you defend the blinds a heap more than me

mine are -.02BB's in the SB and -.11BB's in the BB - those are for all 6 max and probably a bit off given the different blind structures for each of 5/10, 10/20, 15/30

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Nate tha' Great]

Mine are very similar, -.04 in the SB and -.10 in the BB. I'm of the opinion that many blind defense decisions are essentially neutral EV before the flop, but if you've got reasonable postflop skills, you can get a good chunk of your blinds back.

One reason why my defend % numbers might be a little bit high is because I really like to sit in LAG games, especially with LAG players on my right, and these seem to have been particularly easy to find since the new year.

[Packerfan1]

How we compare (25,400 hands for Pack):

VP$IP: DR 23.28 , Pack 23.04

From SB: DR 23.21, Pack 40.83

Folded SB to steal: DR 84.78, Pack 88.37

Fold BB to steal: DR 58.04, Pack 49.92

Att to steal: DR 25.99, Pack 25.48

Win % when see flop: DR 34.34, Pack 32.33

BB/100 hands: DR 1.06, Pack 2.86

Went to showdown: DR 32.99, Pack 29.45

Won at Showdown: DR 56.04, Pack 56.97

Raise PF, DR 10.25, Pack 8.58 (I know! I know!)

I use the database in that I check the other players preflop % and raising % and enter them into the notes section along with any other notes I have. Ya know, like "Total Goof Calling-Fish, called rse w K4o" /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sweetjazz]

Just to clarify, if someone were to fold their hand in the big blind everytime, then they would have a -.50 BB rate in the big blind, right? (I'm not suggesting this is a good strategy /images/graemlins/grin.gif -- just trying to make sure I understand the statistics by referring to this situation as a base mark.)

[naphand]

Yes - in principle.

However, in practice there will be some hand where it gets folded round to you and you get +0.25BB for that hand (from the SB).

Also there will be hands you will get to play for no extra bet, and you are going to hit some of these really hard (and some less hard). You also will get AA etc. in the BB. You won't be folding these hands.

[sxb]

Here are my stats from 33,000+ 5/10 or 10/20 6 max from party . I play 3 tables at any given time.

Voluntarily put in $ 37.01%.
From the SB 41.96%.
Folded SB to steal 76.74% and
BB to steal 43.78%.
Attempt to steal 37.34%,
WInning % when seeing flop is 36.90%.
BB/100 hands +3.10
went to showdown 35.39 and
won at showdown 51.63.
Pre-flop raise 17.66%.

[davidross]

THat's pretty wild. Our stats are pretty close in all areas, except you're making 3 times more than me. It looks like you're getting away from a few more hands than I am, but can that be making up the whole difference?

[Packerfan1]

Ya David that surprised me too.

I sure hope I'm not running good, because I'd hate to see what running bad would look like. (How many times can KQ get beaten by K4o anyways?!)

I only play 2 tables at once, so I guess our hourly rate is about the same. Like you said, the only thing I can think of is I get away from hands faster, which may be right or wrong.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Pack

[Kenshin]

I have two probably false thoughts on the matter.

1. Despite the ostensible similarity of your stats, the two of you might play different types of cards. For instance, one of you might raise with small pairs and limp with Axs while other raises with Axs and limps with small pairs. Your stats would appear similiar but be comprised differently

2. The fewer tables played by packerfan might allow for a better read of his opponents and accordingly, the aforementioned "getting away from" losing hands.

Or, it might just be a statistical quirk.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

you both play a conservative style - i think pack is probably better post flop - that is certainly consistent with playing only 2 tables at once

a more aggressive style is probably better for multiple tables as its brutally simple

i'm amazed at the comparison of $ voluntarily put in and % of hands won when see the flop - i am about as tight pre-flop as both of you but i play much more aggressively pre-flop and i suspect post and after 25,000 hands of 6 max i win almost 40% of the hands i see a flop

my BB's per hundred hands in the 5/10 game is 5.2 - only a small sample space

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Azhrarn]

My pokertracker stats from about 35k hands of 5/10 short (all I've played.)

VP$IP: 20.44%
From the SB: 32.50%
Folded SB to steal: 84.97%
Folded BB to steal: 63.88%
Att. to steal: 22.35%
Won $ WSF: 34.77%
BB/100 hands: 2.09
Went to SD: 30.24%
Won at SD: 57.59%
PF raise: 9.85%

Man, I give up my blinds easy. I'm also shocked that I'm the tightest pf on this thread.

I started playing shorthanded about four months ago (after I bought pokertracker), and I feel my game has changed and improved a lot since I started. I've definitely become much more aggressive. Here's a comparison last year's stats and this year's stats (admittedly, I think I've been running well lately.)

Last year (25,378 hands)/This year (9,845 hands)
VP$IP: 20.19 / 21.11
From the SB: 32.58 / 32.29
Folded SB to steal: 84.01 / 87.45
Folded BB to steal: 64.36 / 62.82
Attempt to steal: 20.98 / 25.92
Won $ WSF: 34.14 / 36.40
BB/100 hands: 1.10 / 4.65
Went to SD: 30.23 / 30.25
Won at SD: 57.35 / 58.19
PF raise: 9.33 / 11.20

Hmm, the differences in these stats aren't as dramatic as I thought they would be, aside from the win rate. But my approach to these shorthanded games has changed a lot in the past four months. BTW, I only play two tables at once shorthanded.

[davidross]

This has been a very interesting thread, for me anyway. I am less agressive than most, but not all. The one constant is that I'm not making as much money as anyone else. TO me that indicates that I'm either running bad (this is only a little over 2 weeks data, but both weeks were what I would call a little above average), or my problem lies post-flop. Either I'm missing some bets, or paying off a little too much. Probably a combination of the two.

I plan to submit a sample of hands to some posters and see if we can find anything obvious. Stay tuned.

[Vazh]

I hope you'll post some here too. I seem to have the same issues you are and would also like to know why my BB/100 isn't higher.

[davidross]

I thought 30,000 hands was a decent size, but clearly things can change quickly. Since Sunday my BB's per 100 hands has gone up from 1.01 to 1.37 with modest wins on each day.

[PraetorianAZ]

The stats mentioned are all for 6 handed. What are some good stats for 10 handed games (Party .50/1.00)?

After 7000 hands:
V$IP 23%
V$SB 48%
Folded SB to steal 67%
Folded BB to steal 86%
Attempt to steal 12%
W$WSF 18.4% This is HALF your #'s!
Win rate 2.83 BB/100
Went to SD 24%
W$SD 55%
PF Raise 3.55%

I limp with Axs, all pairs, KQs, raise AA, KK, AKo always. Raise QQ/JJ/TT/AQo/AJo sometimes.

What is a good W$WSF % for 10 handed micro limit games?

[kiddo]

I have played some 2/4, full table.

Only 15,000 hands.
I got the same V$IP, but raise around 7% preflop.
W$WSF 30%.
Win Rate: 6,5BB.

2/4 is a bit more tight then .50/1 so I guess you can never reach 30%, people aint folding. But from your stats it seems that you need to be more aggressive.

Which hands are you 3betting preflop? If you can drive people out its, for example, important to always 3bet with QQ-TT. Theses hands are very strong headsup, more tricky against 4-5 players.

In late position with only 1 or 2 limpers you can raise a lot of hands because of the loose preflopstandards. People are coming in with pretty scary hands so raising KJo, 99, A7s from button or CO is pretty automatic. You want to buy the button (if you are in CO), you want the blinds to fold or pay for their trash and you want them all to check to you on flop, putting you in driversseat. People are very often slowplaying in these games so if you got something little from flop and bet on button after raising preflop the ones hitting a strong hand will often try to checkraise turn and you can check behind, getting very cheaply to river if you only got a weak draw.

[kiddo]

43,000 hands 5/10, 6max, party p.

VP$IP 22,25%
from SB 28%
folded SB to steal 87%
BB to steal 60&
Attempt to steal 25%
W$WSF 37%
BB/100 2,9
Went to showdown 36%
won at showdown 54%
preflop raise: 12%

You are only raising 43% of the hands you come in with. I think this makes it much more difficult to play later in the hand. The blinds are on random cards (people are calling from SB with anything), suited trash often limps in and you got no idea if the flops hit them and since you didnt show any aggression preflop they will think the trash hands are good.

I am only raising 55% preflop but I am working on this.

[blubster]

Praetorian is this correct or did you make a typo?

PF Raise 3.55%

You're only raising 3.55% preflop? Seems like a staggeringly low number

blubster