First Time 15/30 Live

[Schneids]

Some background: I am 1.5 hours into this sitting, and thus far, have seen three flops. Once, I showdown JJ for the win. A second time, I take the pot with 77 and no showdown. The third, I limp with 97c on the button in a rare multiway unraised pot and fold to the first bet. So, to anyone paying attention I have a rock-tight table image. The avg pot on the table is typically 4 handed for two bets.

In this hand, I am dealt KK in the SB. An MP open raises. MP tends to raise too often preflop, without necessarily having a hand to warrant the raise. Hands seem from his EP/MP open raises include T9o and 44. He plays ok post flop but makes some loose calls.

All fold around to me, I 3-bet, and he calls.

Flop: AJ3r. I bet, he raises.

What's your line for the rest of the hand, when considering the information given. Obviously, folding is out of the question. Let's also say I am 75-80% sure I have a better hand than him.

A) 3-bet now. Find out cheaply if he has you beat (by him 4-betting), while likely losing a lesser hand either now or on your turn bet.
B) Call the raise. Check call a turn bet. Bet the river.
C) Call the raise. Bet the turn and fold to a raise, and if called check/call the river.
D) check/call the rest of the way.
E) Some other option?

I know there are plenty of KK with an ace on flop posts, and yes I have read them, so if this hand is boring to you my apologies. I will make it up to you with a fun bonus question...

**BONUS QUESTION**: You are seated at the table when suddenly an old friend sees you and comes over to start chatting and catch up with you. Additionally, at the same time, a person who you went to the casino with comes over to talk to you. After 1-2 minutes of talking with them, without it slowing down your play on the table, the grumpy old 'regular' to your right, who is clearly down on the night, says to the dealer, "dealer can you please have them clear the rail, I'm getting sick of this." Dealer complies. Fair enough.

Within 5 minutes of this, a 15/30 player from a different table comes over and stands behind this grumpy regular and starts talking with him. FYI, you consider Grumpy to be one of the weak spots in the game. You've seen him play J2s and chase a runner runner flush in a dinky pot, as well as many other suited garbage hands. Also, you know you're going to be done playing for the night within 30 minutes. What is the largest +EV move you can do?

[astroglide]

flop: check/call
turn: check/call
river: bet and fold to a raise, check/call if you can't

bonus: use the guy's exact same words to get his friend ejected

[Edge34]

Hey schneids,

I 3bet him right here. If he does decide to cap you, you can call, and you've got plenty of outs left to call him to the river. Its even possible that he'll cap you and you're still ahead, so you might as well test the waters on the cheap street. I check/call down if he caps me, though.

As far as grumpy...you've got a few options. You could always wait for 25 minutes, till you're just about to leave, then say "dealer, can you please have them clear the rail, i'm getting sick of this." OR, you could ask his buddy for a favor....helping you carry all his friend's chips to the cage for you to cash out. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Edge

[Schneids]

I considered it very unlikely he'd reraise me with a worse hand. So if he did, I was prepared to let go.

[Schneids]

Thanks Astro.

I fully acknowledge the way you've suggested is usually the standard/correct way to play KK HU on a board like this.

I primarily bet because I thought this guy would become suspicious that this "tight rock" 3-bet him preflop then checked a flop many 3-bets will like, and as such, would not throw in a bet with KT or 66 and not try to make a play on the pot. Basically, I figured he'd more likely raise me when he was weak, then bet out when checked to if weak.

If this IS true and you can't take back my flop bet /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (as much as you want to), how do you play?

[astroglide]

lots of people will bet the turn with nothing if you check twice, and you can still bet the river.

but anyway, if a martian bet the flop for me, since i play online it would go something like this: call/call/call. if i was b&m, i would use my sense as best i could to possibly deviate from that pattern.

as for EXACTLY how i would have played it, i would have probably called to let the bb in. if he does, i have the same amount of money in (1 more sb) with one more person that can pay me off. i don't see aced flops as a scare to prohibit this sort of behavior; there are only 3 in the deck if somebody has one and nobody else did.

[shemp]

Bonus Question:
I don't think any option predictably affects your EV.

Meanwhile, maximizing your own happiness doesn't mean minimizing Grumpy's. The railbirding itself must not bother you (or else you wouldn't have subjected the table to the same thing), so let it slide. If it is that Grumpy in particular offends your sense of justice because someone could be so self-involved and small -- it really is beyond you to help him grow, and not acting in a manner to spite him will make a good trial for you... or not... whatever you decide, it is important that you spend as few braincells as possible cogitating over this A-hole.

[theriverwild]

check call, check call, bet the river

[elysium]

hi schnei
in this situation, never attempt to try to find out where your opponent is in the hand. why? because you must assume that he is trying to find out where you are. this is what opponents who play well after the flop are good at doing, and given the pre-flop action, most average opponents will also be trying to find out where you are. so what you do is tell them where you are by reraising.

if you get 4 bet, call.

on the turn, if you think that your opponent will check behind a hand that beats yours, then check. if your opponent bluffs more than average check. if he will call with a weaker hand but won't likely bluff raise, bet unless he will check behind a stronger hand. but if he is solid and good, almost always bet. if he is solid tight and wouldn't bet without having what the board represents, then check-fold.

somewhere in the fray of decisions, factor in your gut instinct.

if you don't know this opponent, get to know him by calling it down when he raises the flop.

where do you want to focus most of your attention if you know this opponent's habits? try to decide first if he would check-behind a stronger hand on the turn. a lot of opponents with troubled hands will make a strong case on the flop, but after having done so, will check-behind with a stronger hand. this isn't the norm, usually they will bet when you check, but if you don't think that you can get a stronger hand to fold, then consider whether or not this opponent may accept a check-down resolution. even if he bets the river, you save a bet. but while you should give that idea consideration, it's not very common to find such an opponent. it only happens when you both know that the other one will not fold, and you both have troubled hands with minimal ev. so obviously your opponent can not be loose, tight, or the type of opponent who would bet with a weaker hand if checked to. then, you would check for other reasons, or of course bet.

if you bet on the turn and get raised, fold unless your opponent is tricky, loose aggressive, or a maniac. and not just a little bit but a lot. he'd really have to be one of these to make calling correct after the flop action.

[Vaughn]

You have noticed that he's prone to open raising with crap. That being the case, allow him to give you his chips on each round. You're only going to lose the minimum by calling him down. When he shows you an Ace, remember, you only lost 2BB that hand. Play it cheap when you're vulnerable.

JM2c,

Vaughn