Pending Solution.

[Mike Haven]

Now that some water has passed under the bridge, and temperatures have cooled, I have decided to stick my head above the parapet again and give my considered solution, which, I believe, is the fairest possible to all parties, taking various points from all corners, for the reasons that will be explained below.

A good number of Team Members have been chatting in the Pooh-Bahs' Private Forum, and we have been reading all the relevant open posts. (Thank you very much, everyone, for taking the time to express your thoughts in this matter.)

While there is no fix that is agreed 100% by all, (nor even 10% by some), this is the gist of the possible solution that I have put to Mr True-man. (I have received no communications from True since the Tourney.)

The immediate refund of all Entry Fees was perhaps a mistake, albeit understandable, in the circumstances.

However, it was effected, and is obviously irreversible.

The cost to True was approximately $850, (85 x $22 Entry Fees, less 85 x $2 Early Bird Rebates and 85 x $10 Play Rebates, already agreed).

There are a number of Players who will not be able to or do not wish to play in a Replay Tournament, whether it's for 85 or 34 players. If the 34-player Tournament is played and some of these Players were high in chips at the fated Break, then it can only be thought that their voluntary or forced exclusion from the Replay must be unfair on them.

Therefore, this leads to the certain conclusion that the first Tournament can only be looked at as a completed Event.

One way to deal with a completed Event is to call it a non-Event and refund all Entry Fees. This was the course that was chosen by True, but, perhaps, too hastily, under the expected and perceived pressure from an important group of customers.

Another way to deal with a completed Event is to take the prize fund and distribute it equitably among the Players remaining at the moment when serious problems commenced, and it this method that we wish to be considered by True.

In our case, it is "lucky" that we have an almost
universally agreed problem-commencement-point of immediately after the Break, when 34 Players remained.

We assume that True will know how many chips out of the 85000 in play that each of the 34 Players held at that point.

There was a prize fund of $1700, so each chip in play was worth $0.02.

We propose that every Player should be given $0.02 for every chip they held immediately after the Break.

Also, the four "Winners" should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $50 each.

The four "Runners-Up" should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $25 each.

The 26 other Players should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $10 each.

Therefore, the total extra cost to True would be:

85 x $10 = $850
4 x $50 = $200
4 x $25 = $100
26 x $10 = $260

Total extra cost to True = $1,410

This concludes the Completed Event scenario.

Finally, with respect to the Team Challenge side of things, True should hold a semi-Freeroll Tournament at 8.30pmEST next Thursday, 12th February, for all Players.

This would be another $20+$2 Event, but the $10 Play Rebate would carry forward - anyone who had already earned it prior to the last game would receive it again, and anyone new earning it by playing 100 raked ring hands by the starting time of the game would also receive it.

A $2 Early Bird Rebate for Players registering by midnight on Tuesday, 10th February, would apply.

As a final olive branch to us, and as a "pot sweetener", instead of their usually offered Bonuses, True would add an additional $5 per Player to the Prize Fund.

In other words, if we have three Teams of twenty Players each, it should cost us $10 each to play a 60-man Tournament with a Prize Fund of $1500.

New Team Members would be allowed to play.

[Inthacup]

A good number of Team Members have been chatting in the Pooh-Bahs' Private Forum


wtf?? Mike, you know I'll bring the beer. Let me know next time!


Cup

[Mike Haven]

I'll bring the beer ... next time

It's because you brought the beer last time that you were barred, if you remember.

No.

I doubt if you remember too much about it, come to think of it.

Inthacup > /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Styles]

That seems very well thought out and even though you didn't ask for votes per se I want to be supportive of this compromise. Also, I want to say Thanks for the continued hard work that it is clear went into that compilation.

I have one question solely regarding the Team Challenge scoring part of it:

Since, you are put in the spot of considering it a completed event ... shouldn't whatever points are awarded the teams based on finishing spot for the scoring go ahead and be awarded to the teams based on positions as of the last 34 like you are the prize money? you can add these to the pool of points gained in the second tourney to determine the winning team.

If you don't, it seems to me some people (mostly Zoo'ers /images/graemlins/grin.gif) are playing a double-elimination event while others are playing a single-elimination event for the same point structure.

[Mike Haven]

Thank you very much for your support.

I believe it is vital that we show a united front in this.

As you know, although I am trying my utmost to be fair to all parties, we need to persuade Mr True-man to move from his somewhat entrenched position and make some serious attempts at winning back as many friends as he can - and in our market, that means by increasing his dollars-offer.

In my opinion, how he reacts to this proposition is very important to his future relationship with many of the posters of our forums.

[DrPhysic]

Mike,
You realize that no matter what is done, you cannot satisfy everybody. Fact of life.

I think your proposed solution is fair to the leaders of the tourn at the break, and more than fair to all the players including the ones like myself that were out before the break. I will play thursday. I hope the rest do.

Very well thought out.

Doc

[wudedude]

its not really a big deal, dont know why everyones getting so worked up over true and one little tourny. ive been there for over 2 yrs and thats the first time ive seen it do that. that crap dont happen much, it just so happend during our match. the point of this tourny was the zoo vs. ss vs. toons first off there was suppose to be 120 entrys or 40 per team. and barley over 2 teams showed? where was everyone?

i think everyones afraid of the toons!

lets get this tourny going again and everyone show this time and lets play dammit! enough debating and crying about the place, it was a online error. shyt happens, deal with it, move on. peace! go toons!

[Lori]

its not really a big deal, dont know why everyones getting so worked up over true and one little tourny. ive been there for over 2 yrs and thats the first time ive seen it do that.

The most serious problem is that this is the 2nd time it has happened in three events, hence the high blood pressures.

As to Mike's proposal, I think it's as dead-on as we are going to get it.

Lori

[Styles]

Agreed.

I'm actually playing in True's Sunrise ($10+1) $200 added right now.

We went to the first break and there were 35 players left and I ran to print a copy of the leaderboard just in case /images/graemlins/grin.gif

While I'm willing to give True another chance, my confidence is certainly shaken. I've never done anything like that before, I've had total confidence in True.

[dogsballs]

This all sounds very good Mike. I'm an outsider 'cos I couldn't make it, but it does appear a good compromise for the players, quibbling aside. It does mean True will be forking out a fair bit, though.

One question, though. This arrangemnet now means that the bubble boy/girl would now be the last person eliminated just before the break..?! Who was that?

[Styles]

Bud25 sat thru the break at our table with a $0 stack, he was busted on the previous hand.

So if that becomes it, I think he's in for any bubble-bonus.

There might be some others.

[Stew]

I'm all for it.

Good work Mike, you do an excellent job!

[t_perkin]

True has not agreed to what Mike has proposed yet....

The last we heard from them, we are getting a free roll and that is it.

I wouldn't count on anything else until they agree to it.

I don't know if it is any coincidence but I notice that True has just changed their software so that it doesn't take up the entire screen...


Tim

[Simon Diamond]

its not really a big deal

The big deal is Mike has been made to look a right prick because of the cock up. Anybody who doesn't agree with his proposal can go to hell in my opinion.

Simon

[n1stunnor]

[JTG51]

I think that's a resonable solution for everyone, Mike. I support it 100%.

As for the team points stuff, I really couldn't care less how that gets settled. I'm just playing for fun anyway. Call it a tie and be done with it.

[BigEndian]

Nicely put Mike. I agree that this is as near to a common ground as we'll get.

If TP CEO is reading, I hope you dont read Mike's proposal and think we're being obstinate. This is a proposal that should have come from TP's corner and Mike is, once again, rising to the occaision.

- Jim

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
we need to persuade Mr True-man to move from his somewhat entrenched position and make some serious attempts at winning back as many friends as he can

[/ QUOTE ]

He needs to get un-entrenched if he wants most of us back. The first thing I did was immediately cash out. The next thing I did was cash out the $22 he paid back. Unless some serious butt-kissing goes on quickly, most likely I will play any re-runs there, buying the minimum # of chips possible to play, then immediately cashing out any winnings... and still not play there again.

al

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
The most serious problem is that this is the 2nd time it has happened in three events,

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you could give a quick history lesson. Are you saying that this is the second time the tournament has been held at True with the tournament being messed up for the same reason?

I just want to make sure I get a fair picture of their level of irresponsability.

[dogsballs]

Surely it's fairly clear that team points should be scrapped for the c*ck up and be decided in the subsequent - successful - tourney next week. I say this knowing absolutely 100% nothing of what the relevant point status is/was at any point in the garbage tourney.

dogs

[Al_Capone_Junior]

yea, mike could score the team points, but how many people are really going to care? Not me. The event was screwed and not allowed to finish properly. Teams schmeams. I could not care less what the score was. Major disappointment, yes. Only solution is to re-hype and re-run, then the team scores will have meaning.

al

[Lori]

I was being slightly unfair.

The first time was messed up as it was their first password tourney and things just wouldn't work for a couple of hours.

Lori

[JDErickson]

Sounds fair to me

[morgant]

great resolution, f the team thing for this past event and let's get amped up for a rerun that will really mean something. this past one was tainted so if the zoo wins, it won't really entail the bragging rights i so desire. All we need is true's response and i feel this will be a dead issue.........Never thought it possible to get 100 different people to agree to someting over the internet when most have never met, and.......these are 100 poker players so most are probably a bit too big for their britches and feel they are always right....Maybe there is hope for this world /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[dogsballs]

My britches are fine. I'm just too big for your britches../images/graemlins/smirk.gif!

[Jackal22]

I am definitely interested in playing in the next one.

[Stagemusic]

Well done Mike. I think you have hit upon a fair and equitable solution. The cost to True is actually minimal considering the good faith advertising he will receive. Thumbs up all the way. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stew]

I have already stated my support for this solution, I just want to reinforce this. I would definitely play the 100 raked hands for the rebate and a lot more if True agreed to a viable solution in this matter. Customer Service Rules!

[34TheTruth34]

OK, OK, I'll be the sucker:

Is there really a Pooh Bahs private forum??

(c'mon, the rest of you were wondering too...)

[Mike Haven]

wasn't it groucho who said something like "if there was, and they'd have someone like me as a member, i wouldn't join"?

[William]

The cost to True was approximately $850, (85 x $22 Entry Fees, less 85 x $2 Early Bird Rebates and 85 x $10 Play Rebates, already agreed).

I have not received any rabate or early bird? Should it get credited to my account or should I e-mail TP?

BTW, I think Mike's solution is excellent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
The cost to True was approximately $850, (85 x $22 Entry Fees, less 85 x $2 Early Bird Rebates and 85 x $10 Play Rebates, already agreed).

I have not received any rabate or early bird? Should it get credited to my account or should I e-mail TP?

BTW, I think Mike's solution is excellent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you should have received your full $22 buy-in back, they refunded everyone's buy-in.

[brian0729]

Outstanding job as usual Mike and I think it is 100% fair.

[Joe Tall]

Mike,

I feel you have come up with the most plausible soultion. I must say I've been ruthless with True Poker, however, if they would accommodate us with this, I would return to taking money from the fishy players at their games. I will say, the very limited time I have played, the games were extremely soft.

I understand that they have issues that they have been working on. However, without such free customer feeback here in the Zoo; they would never be able to fix them.

I am also wondering if you have heard a single word from True yet? Granted, they returned our funds, yet they have promised a freeroll to those who remained at the break.

Thanks again, Mike,
Joe Tall

[Mike Haven]

Thanks for your considered remarks, Joe, and everyone else.

No, I haven't heard back from Mr True-man since the Tourney, yet.

I have sent him a copy of my post, and a link to the thread, so I am sure that he will read it and see your general agreement as soon as he and his wife return to their garage.

It could be construed by him as an expensive solution unless he believes that we will accept this as a one-off software error and continue to play ring games at True.

For my part, I would suggest that you consider playing at True in your less-intensive moments. It is a relaxing site to play; there are friendly players; and, even I don't think the games are tough in any way. If you played for an hour or two per week, (and he can see how much we play at the click of a button), then he may continue to give us excellent deals for one-off tournies in the future - something that none of the other major sites will do.

As soon as I hear from him, one way or another, I will let you know - unless he comes straight to the forum, of course.

[superleeds]

This seems all fine and dandy but until you have some communication with True about what they are prepared to do, re prize money, isn't this bollocks

[HavanaBanana]

Any reply yet?
Thursday is coming up rapidly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mike Haven]

I must admit I'm getting a little /images/graemlins/blush.gif and /images/graemlins/confused.gif owing to the total lack of communication from Mr Gzesh.

Although superleeds thinks my efforts have been a load of bollocks, I really believed that with two interested parties being round the table, and with a united front being shown by the 34 people in one negotiating team, we had a very good chance of persuading True that this was the way forward for us to be happy with the result, and for them to realise that by making us happy, they would succeed in receiving continuing long-term business from us.

I regret that I fail to see why Mr Gzesh has taken this ostrich-like stance, whatever he thought of the proposal, which was, obviously, wholly negotiable, in any case. I thought it was a solution which although on the surface appeared expensive to True, gave us all good reason to turn the other cheek and continue what has up to now been a mutually beneficial and forward-looking relationship.

I cannot imagine any circumstances where he has not read this thread, whether he is at work in his garage, or if he is swanning off round the Bahamas in one of his yachts.

I am most disappointed, as I am sure all of you are, to say the very least.

Again, in the hope that I will receive a reply today, as soon as I hear, you will hear.

[Tosh]

Just regardless of whether this goes ahead this Thursday, next Thursday, at True or Stars or whatever, is it too late to get into the next one played ?

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
Although superleeds thinks my efforts have been a load of bollocks

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if this is how you think I feel Mike. It is not. What I am trying to point out is that negotiations are impossible if one side, and that side holds ultimate power, fail to involve themselves. I hold no grudge against you and will willing enter any tournament you may care to organise in the future, (if you don't do anymore, I would not blame you).

My pizzed of stance is with True, NOT YOU.

Paul

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
load of bollocks

[/ QUOTE ]

Help an American out, are bollocks really that bad?

[Mike Haven]

Keep posting and reading in the Zoo, Tosh. Any time a new Tourney of any type is announced, if you fit the Tournament Director's criteria, your enrolment will be welcomed. (In the Team Events where I have been TD I have had no enrolment criteria.)

[Mike Haven]

Thanks for that explanation, superleeds.

I guess everyone's temperatures are running a little high on this one, and misinterpretations are easily made. Apologies back at you.

[Graham]

Help an American out, are bollocks really that bad?

My, you've got a big hand.

Just substitute crap - or something like that - for bollocks; it'll mean about the same. Or say it bollix and try and put on an Irish accent when you say it to Mike.

I think you know what it means, though.

[Mike Haven]

This might help you understand why my bollocks are a sensitive subject for me.

I used to think I was lucky to have been born with three bollocks.

I remember when I needed money in Vegas one time I went into a bar and found another drunk crying into his beer, so I said, "Let's bet the Barman $2,000 that we have five bollocks between us!"

Well, after much encouragement and persuasion that we couldn't lose, in the end he went along with this, and we set up the bet with the Barman.

So my new friend stands up and throws his meat and veg out on the table and says, "OK - there's my one - now you show him your four!"

[RollaJ]

Im still not sure what they are, but that was a damn funny joke!
I think Ill trust the first answer from Graham though

[Sheriff Fatman]

Its sad really but I find these US/UK language differences really interesting. I once got in an online argument at a table with an all-in abuser and told him his 'I got disconnected' excuse was bollocks. It really confused him!

Also, it still brings an evil smile to my face to know that probably 75% of the readers will cringe whenever I write the word 'cheque' in a post. On the other hand, I've found that I'm now using the word 'kudos' far more than I used to since finding this site and am now frequently hitting the $ sign button instead of the £ sign at work.

However, I'm still resisting with a passion ever using the phrase 'my bad'. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Sheriff

PS: FWIW Mike, I don't think I've seen anything on the subject of this Tourney which implied any direct criticism of you. However, when you're that close to a subject where feelings have run high in some of the posts its easy to understand how you might interpret some of it this way.

I sincerely hope that no-one has anything other than gratitude for the efforts of you and the other TD's on this site. Without your (combined) efforts some of the more enjoyable/memorable poker-playing experiences (e.g. OIC, KotZ, etc) I've had would never have happened.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Put it this way Rollaj, you'll see a lot of bollocks on display in those sites where you get your pictures from!

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
Its sad really but I find these US/UK language differences really interesting. I once got in an online argument at a table with an all-in abuser and told him his 'I got disconnected' excuse was bollocks. It really confused him!
Also, it still brings an evil smile to my face to know that probably 75% of the readers will cringe whenever I write the word 'cheque' in a post. On the other hand, I've found that I'm now using the word 'kudos' far more than I used to since finding this site and am now frequently hitting the $ sign button instead of the £ sign at work.
However, I'm still resisting with a passion ever using the phrase 'my bad'.

[/ QUOTE ]


As a brit who has been living in the states for the last 4 years it is amazing how easy it is to confuse an American with Brit expressions. I can understand that they may never have heard some of the individual words but most of the time they can never even guess at the meaning when it is so obvious from the context. And before all you Yanks jump down my throat, my wife, an American, mentioned this to me before I said anything to her.

Hope I haven't upset anyone, if I have, my bad /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

PS. I know most Americans aren't Yanks, but until you lot stop thinking were all cockneys, tough /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[t_perkin]

Bollocks = Balls = Nuts = Testicles = Nads = Plums = Family Jewels

If something is Bollocks then it is bad.

Unless it is the Dogs Bollocks - In which case it is the best possible.

i.e.

Pocket Rockets is the dogs bollocks. However one may exclaim "oh bollocks" when they get beaten by 22 which outdraws on the river.

---

I share a house with an American guy from florida and another guy from India. Syed and I have much fun "correcting" the american's bad english /images/graemlins/smile.gif

common americanism "mistakes":

A car has a Hood and a Trunk - WRONG - a car has a bonnet and a boot.

Oregano is pronounced oREG-ENO - WRONG - ORI-GARNO

Alumnium has an I in it!! it is Al-U-min-E-um NOT ALOO-MIN-UM

And of course Chips are Crisps And what you call fries are very poor excuses for Chips.

Pants - what you wear next to your bollocks - as in underwear
Trousers - what you mistakenly call pants

Ass = cross breed between donkey and horse - which is a very stupid animal
Arse = what you sit on

Therefore to call someone as Ass is correct. Telling someone to kiss my butt and telling someone to kiss my ass is not the same thing - the latter being a rather strange insult...
Oh how americans are confused...

Fanny = A woman's privates NOT your arse


But the grammar is the funniest:

In american:

If you steal something then your are a "burgler". If you are the victim of a burgler then you have been "burglerized" which means it must be a "burglerizer" which did it to you. which means he must have been "burglerizerized" you which means he must be a "burglerizerizer" and so on...

Also note that they should all be "s"s not "z"s. I.e. burglerised - not burglerized.

Of course the correct form is:

If you steal somehting you are a burgler, and the victim has been burgled. simple as that.
To burglerise someone is to turn them into a burgler.


The list is truly endless.

Tim

[Lori]

However, I'm still resisting with a passion ever using the phrase 'my bad'

Sniff, I like this one, five letters and means quite a lot.

I feel I have also mastered the art of using "Whatever" as a swear word to end a conversation.

Lori

[morgant]

Alumnium has an I in it!! it is Al-U-min-E-um NOT ALOO-MIN-UM

if there is an I in it, then why do you make it sound like an E?????? that seems rather counterintuitive to me

Oregano is pronounced oREG-ENO - WRONG - ORI-GARNO

you can't be serious? i did not even know you people pronounced oregano this way, how do you get ORI-Garno from oregano? there is an E in it just as you so blatanly pointed out there is an I in alumium and obviously contradicted your stupendous phonetic reasonings.

[BigEndian]

Lori, just curious, where'd your avatar come from?

- Jim

[Lori]

Lori, just curious, where'd your avatar come from?

It's one of the freebies at something like "The animations factory" from the site (angelfire) that hosts my attempt at a website.

Lori

[Mike Haven]

It's "ee" as in "stinking".

Example: "We doan need no steenkin badges!"

(Hear it at www.darryl.com/badges/ (http://www.darryl.com/badges/) )

[superleeds]

if any of you smoking brits are in the US and don't have any cigs on you, the correct thing to do is to announce to the nearest American that you are gonna pop out and try to bum a fag. This works very well in the South Western States

[morgant]

I suggest if you want to live in OUR country that we shorthanded took back from you, i think you should abide by our customs or a fag might pop you.

[t_perkin]

"The only thing worse than an american accent is an american"

-Ben Elton

[RollaJ]

Lets say well all light up some fags and shag some birds tonight /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

<font color="blue"> T </font> <font color="red"> H </font> <font color="blue"> A </font> <font color="red"> N </font> <font color="blue"> K </font> ~~ <font color="red"> G </font> <font color="blue"> _ </font> <font color="red"> D </font>~~ <font color="blue"> W </font> <font color="red"> E </font>~~ <font color="blue"> W </font> <font color="blue"> O </font> <font color="blue"> N </font> ~~ <font color="red"> T </font> <font color="blue"> H </font> <font color="red"> A </font> <font color="blue"> T </font> ~~ <font color="red"> W </font> <font color="blue"> A </font> <font color="red"> R </font>~~
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[morgant]

i agree with ben t_perkin, however, i can't seem to recall the last time i have heard of an icelander doing anything to have a positive impact on society. i mean if it wasn't for us, you would be bowing to hitler's regime right now

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean if it wasn't for us, you would be bowing to hitler's regime right now

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thanks for that. Nice touch waiting for Germany to declare war on you first. And heaven forbid you should give any credit to the Russians.

[AAmaz0n]

Amen, RollaJ. If we had lost the revolution, we'd all still be speaking English over here! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Cheers,

Shauna

[morgant]

when i said us it was in reference to the allied front, and prior to the Germans attacking Russia they had a non-aggression pact that the russians used to start picking up territories of their own, the fighting the russians initially did was to take back there own cities that the germans had invaded and the italians were invading. as for waiting for the germans to declare war on us, do you know why they declared war on us? because we had publicly declared neutrality but had been openly acting in support of the allied front which is in direct conflict with the international laws of neutrality, we sent our soldiers across the pond to fight for YOUR freedom on YOUR soil. DONT FORGET IT and dont cry that it was too late, We look out for our own interests first.

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
when i said us it was in reference to the allied front

[/ QUOTE ]

As you were replying to my post and as I so obviously stated my nationality I assumed you were referencing the US when you said us. I apologise. My bad.

[ QUOTE ]
prior to the Germans attacking Russia they had a non-aggression pact that the russians used to start picking up territories of their own, the fighting the russians initially did was to take back there own cities that the germans had invaded and the italians were invading

[/ QUOTE ]

no problem with this. I was thinking more about the Russians keeping the Germans busy on the Eastern Front and finally pushing them all the way back to Berlin. As the US and British forces were pushing them from the west. I think that was a help.

[ QUOTE ]
as for waiting for the germans to declare war on us, do you know why they declared war on us? because we had publicly declared neutrality but had been openly acting in support of the allied front which is in direct conflict with the international laws of neutrality

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Why didn't they do it before? You had openly been assisting the British since Sept'39. Might it have had something to do with the fact the US and British had declared war on Japan, an ally of Germany's, a couple of days earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
we sent our soldiers across the pond to fight for YOUR freedom on YOUR soil. DONT FORGET IT and dont cry that it was too late

[/ QUOTE ]

Again thank you very much. But just to play devils advocate don't you think when another country declares war on you, it may be necessary to get of your sofa's, switch of the box and go and fight, even it that means going to a foreign country with no McDonalds in sight.

[ QUOTE ]
We look out for our own interests first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Sir

[t_perkin]

3 years too late in the 2nd War World so you thought you would make up for it by turning up WAY too early for the 2nd Gulf War

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

only joking ok. My US housemate is the nicest guy and he is doing a fine job of representing u guys in sunny old Iceland.

tim